Natal Promise

[junethird]

Hello, looking closer to our natal promise, especially fertility

overall I see 1 little One for me.

me and this guy have some nice connections.

*sun conjunct sun
*my sun trine his moon
*his venus conjunct my sun
*his sun trine my pluto
*his venus opposite my uranus is good i think.
*his venus trine my mars
*his pluto trine my mercury
*his sun conjunct my mercury
*my moon conjunct his mercury

 

[Larxene]

And...what is your question?



Looking at your chart, I'd say you would have about 2-3 children. Looking at his chart, I think he would have 1-2 children as well.

 

[junethird]

And...what is your question?



Looking at your chart, I'd say you would have about 2-3 children. Looking at his chart, I think he would have 1-2 children as well.

thank you!

i want to know everything lol but mostly the pitfalls and the type of marriage partner and parent style/type.

i liked his moon in the 5th. i saw two for him.
iam so glad you see multiples for me. the best i could see was a chance for twins for me in a solar return chart. but overall i think i see only 1 boy.

it would be nice if together we would have any children i would very much like to be a mother and wife sometime soon

 

[Minderwiz]

Thanks for the natal details and the expanded question. I'll get back to you as soon as I've cat the chart and had a look.

BTW A solar return chart can't bring you something that isn't there natally. What it can show is timing of the natal promise and whether the coming year will be good, bad or just average.

 

[Minderwiz]

I tend to be very careful about either natal or horary questions relating to children. We now live in an age where fertility treatment is available for women who can't conceive, so the natal promise might well be modified to allow for that at some future date. Don't taken the chart as a final statement.

Strictly speaking, before looking at fertility, we should look at marriage - no union, no matter how fertile you are, means no children. However marriage is a much muddier area than it used to be. So I'm not really going to pay that much attention to it (unless you want me to).

William Lilly gives a good account of making an assessment of whether there will be children and how many there will be.

This involves looking at fertile planets - Jupiter Moon, Venus, and also the North Node. In particular, fruitful planets in fruitful signs is an indicator of high fertility.

You have Jupiter in Scorpio (fruitful planet in a fruitful sign). By whole sign houses Jupiter is in the seventh, which adds to its significance.

Moon is in Cancer - fruitful planet in a fruitful sign - it is also trined by Jupiter again boosting indications of fertility.

Venus is in Aries, which is middling, not fruitful but not barren

The North Node is in Cancer. Again a fruitful significator in a fruitful sign.

Of the Barren planets, Sun is in Gemini, a barren sign. Mars is in Libra, a middling sign, Saturn is in Libra a middling sign, and the South Node is in Capricorn, a middling sign.

All this points to children, and more than one.

Planets in the eleventh and fifth are also indicators of children, but there are none (using the traditional set). This does not reduce the number, it simply doesn't add to it.

Counting the fruitful planet/sign as positive and barren planet/sign as negative we end up with three positives and one negative - say two children. It could be more because of the Jupiter in the seventh to Moon trine.

As all but one masculine planets are in masculine signs, this would be taken as an indicator of male children. Personally I have some doubts over this, as there are more masculine planets than feminine.

For him the situation is:

Fruitful planets - Moon in Aquarius, middling Jupiter in Leo barren. Venus in Gemini, barren. North Node in Virgo, barren.

Barren planets - Sun in Gemini, barren, Mars in Taurus, middling, Saturn in Virgo. barren, South Node in Pisces, fruitful. Mercury is in Cancer, a fruitful sign but it's aspects to Saturn and Mars, render it barren.

Planets in the fifth - none. Planets in the eleventh - 1 (Mercury).

This suggests that he's not very fertile. Bearing in mind my point about fertility treatment, that doesn't rule out kids and indeed as you are very fruitful, so that might increase the chances by itself.

 

[junethird]

I tend to be very careful about either natal or horary questions relating to children. We now live in an age where fertility treatment is available for women who can't conceive, so the natal promise might well be modified to allow for that at some future date. Don't taken the chart as a final statement.

Strictly speaking, before looking at fertility, we should look at marriage - no union, no matter how fertile you are, means no children. However marriage is a much muddier area than it used to be. So I'm not really going to pay that much attention to it (unless you want me to).

William Lilly gives a good account of making an assessment of whether there will be children and how many there will be.

This involves looking at fertile planets - Jupiter Moon, Venus, and also the North Node. In particular, fruitful planets in fruitful signs is an indicator of high fertility.

You have Jupiter in Scorpio (fruitful planet in a fruitful sign). By whole sign houses Jupiter is in the seventh, which adds to its significance.

Moon is in Cancer - fruitful planet in a fruitful sign - it is also trined by Jupiter again boosting indications of fertility.

Venus is in Aries, which is middling, not fruitful but not barren

The North Node is in Cancer. Again a fruitful significator in a fruitful sign.

Of the Barren planets, Sun is in Gemini, a barren sign. Mars is in Libra, a middling sign, Saturn is in Libra a middling sign, and the South Node is in Capricorn, a middling sign.

All this points to children, and more than one.

Planets in the eleventh and fifth are also indicators of children, but there are none (using the traditional set). This does not reduce the number, it simply doesn't add to it.

Counting the fruitful planet/sign as positive and barren planet/sign as negative we end up with three positives and one negative - say two children. It could be more because of the Jupiter in the seventh to Moon trine.

As all but one masculine planets are in masculine signs, this would be taken as an indicator of male children. Personally I have some doubts over this, as there are more masculine planets than feminine.

For him the situation is:

Fruitful planets - Moon in Aquarius, middling Jupiter in Leo barren. Venus in Gemini, barren. North Node in Virgo, barren.

Barren planets - Sun in Gemini, barren, Mars in Taurus, middling, Saturn in Virgo. barren, South Node in Pisces, fruitful. Mercury is in Cancer, a fruitful sign but it's aspects to Saturn and Mars, render it barren.

Planets in the fifth - none. Planets in the eleventh - 1 (Mercury).

This suggests that he's not very fertile. Bearing in mind my point about fertility treatment, that doesn't rule out kids and indeed as you are very fruitful, so that might increase the chances by itself.

nice details. you are very good.

i know iam fertile. have not tested out that theory in quite a few years now. as none of my previous pregnancies made it to term. so after following my chart and a few solar arcs. ive been able to see only one boy in my lifetime. i think it will happen soon. withing the next 3 yrs.

he is also very fertile as he has had 'oops' in the past but also they have not reached term for different reasons than mine.

iam not very optimistic that we will have children together but iam hopeful that if it does happen. by the looks of uranus it might be unplanned and a bit of a surprise. i can see that being a pattern with me as my previous pregnancies with the exception of 1 have been kinda of a fluke. a happy surprise

 

[junethird]

Thanks for the natal details and the expanded question. I'll get back to you as soon as I've cat the chart and had a look.

BTW A solar return chart can't bring you something that isn't there natally. What it can show is timing of the natal promise and whether the coming year will be good, bad or just average.

yes, ive followed my solar return charts for a few years now and looked up a few past ones and have seen some interesting promises come true.

a year after my saturn return started and hit my 7th house he came into my life after saturn broke up my previous long term plans with another man. he has more or less been a steady influence. he is by far perhaps my 2nd stable connection (i dont easily commit and jump in it takes me a while to warm up and allow someone in, most loose patience with me lol) now that saturn is rx and still hovering over my 7th was hoping that something more stable and long term will manifest.

 

[Larxene]

@Minderwiz:

I have seen Schmidt's old article about the topical significations where he said that in the Hellenistic era, there were four houses related to children (5th, 7th, 4th, 11th). However, the reasons they were associated to children were different, so at the moment I am hesitant to add all of the indicators together. Tentatively, the 5th and 7th can be added up (for women), but I think we should avoid "adding" the indicators of the 4th and 11th.



With regards to the advances in medical treatment, I think of the issue as relative to the average birth rates per household, which is also variable depending on the country you live in.

So although the ancients may deem a person barren, in this age it is still possible to have children IF you seek medical treatment and/or do the appropriate things. This is a Fortune and Spirit issue.

However, I also have a liking for looking at things from the old perspective. If we think about it, 100 years ago, when people say they have many children, they probably mean something like 6-10 children. These days though, 5-6 children is probably a lot!

There are certainly many issues that contribute to this change: increased use of contraception, higher living costs, higher costs per children due to things like higher education and increased entertainment demands (my sister was commenting the other day about how a 6 year-old was asking his mom to buy him an expensive looking smartphone, and how quite a few little kids have iPads), double income households, etc.

If we go further into the past, this difference in perception will be even more stark, as then many children may die due to unknown diseases and so on. So for the ancients, 1-2 children is probably considered "barren"!



Perhaps giving qualitative statements will be better, esp if the natives are in a country whose birth rates are unknown to the astrologer. But qualitative statements are not very helpful if the client doesn't have something to compare with, so either the client has to find out on his/her own what the average is, or the astrologer have to learn facts about the different parts of the world. (Which can be fascinating, if you ask me.)



@junethird:

If there is desire to have children, then depending on your age, you may find it beneficial to start as soon as is practical to do so.

 

[junethird]

@Minderwiz:

I have seen Schmidt's old article about the topical significations where he said that in the Hellenistic era, there were four houses related to children (5th, 7th, 4th, 11th). However, the reasons they were associated to children were different, so at the moment I am hesitant to add all of the indicators together. Tentatively, the 5th and 7th can be added up (for women), but I think we should avoid "adding" the indicators of the 4th and 11th.



With regards to the advances in medical treatment, I think of the issue as relative to the average birth rates per household, which is also variable depending on the country you live in.

So although the ancients may deem a person barren, in this age it is still possible to have children IF you seek medical treatment and/or do the appropriate things. This is a Fortune and Spirit issue.

However, I also have a liking for looking at things from the old perspective. If we think about it, 100 years ago, when people say they have many children, they probably mean something like 6-10 children. These days though, 5-6 children is probably a lot!

There are certainly many issues that contribute to this change: increased use of contraception, higher living costs, higher costs per children due to things like higher education and increased entertainment demands (my sister was commenting the other day about how a 6 year-old was asking his mom to buy him an expensive looking smartphone, and how quite a few little kids have iPads), double income households, etc.

If we go further into the past, this difference in perception will be even more stark, as then many children may die due to unknown diseases and so on. So for the ancients, 1-2 children is probably considered "barren"!



Perhaps giving qualitative statements will be better, esp if the natives are in a country whose birth rates are unknown to the astrologer. But qualitative statements are not very helpful if the client doesn't have something to compare with, so either the client has to find out on his/her own what the average is, or the astrologer have to learn facts about the different parts of the world. (Which can be fascinating, if you ask me.)



@junethird:

If there is desire to have children, then depending on your age, you may find it beneficial to start as soon as is practical to do so.

Thank you! yes the desire is present. But iam still missing half of the equation. The potential baby daddy. Ive been following our progressive charts loosely but i dont see much progress at this point. Maybe after his birthday when. His asc goes into scorpio something may happen.

 

[Minderwiz]

@Minderwiz:

I have seen Schmidt's old article about the topical significations where he said that in the Hellenistic era, there were four houses related to children (5th, 7th, 4th, 11th). However, the reasons they were associated to children were different, so at the moment I am hesitant to add all of the indicators together. Tentatively, the 5th and 7th can be added up (for women), but I think we should avoid "adding" the indicators of the 4th and 11th.

The source I used was entirely William Lilly (1647) I did not use any Hellenistic source at all. For interest Valens only mentions children in connection with the eleventh house and then along with a number of other things. The eleventh was the Place of the Daimon, or Good Spirit and the joy of Jupiter. The fifth was the Place of Good Fortune and the Joy of Venus. I would think that the association with children comes from the associations with the two benefics. Up to modern times, unless you were very rich, you needed children to maintain you in old age. Good Fortune and Good Spirit would seem the best places that indicated children and benefics here would point in the direction of fertility and therefore children.

I used a rather mechanical additive form, which Lilly did not, though he does advised us to weigh all the indicators and form a judgement. In this case there were three very positive indicators, one very negative indicators and the rest were middling. Overall that looks quite favourable and putting it at one child is probably an underestimate. However I did not consider the section on carrying to full term.

With regards to the advances in medical treatment, I think of the issue as relative to the average birth rates per household, which is also variable depending on the country you live in.

Agreed. The situation would be totally different in many third world countries and of course income and social class would be important as would issues of religion. However, as Lilly put it, we have to temper Art with 'observation'. If it's an eighty year old woman inquiring about her fertility, it doesn't really matter what the natal chart says, she's not going to conceive and bear children, nor is she going to cope with artificial means.

In this particular case the evidence is for a couple of child bearing years living in the developed world. I'd not have included the reference to artificial means otherwise.

So although the ancients may deem a person barren, in this age it is still possible to have children IF you seek medical treatment and/or do the appropriate things. This is a Fortune and Spirit issue.

Agreed, that was the import of my reference to artificial means LOL

However, I also have a liking for looking at things from the old perspective. If we think about it, 100 years ago, when people say they have many children, they probably mean something like 6-10 children. These days though, 5-6 children is probably a lot!

There are certainly many issues that contribute to this change: increased use of contraception, higher living costs, higher costs per children due to things like higher education and increased entertainment demands (my sister was commenting the other day about how a 6 year-old was asking his mom to buy him an expensive looking smartphone, and how quite a few little kids have iPads), double income households, etc.

If we go further into the past, this difference in perception will be even more stark, as then many children may die due to unknown diseases and so on. So for the ancients, 1-2 children is probably considered "barren"!

One to two surviving children would probably be considered fine. That of course, as you say, does not mean one or two pregnancies. I don't know of any research on family size in classical times but infant mortality rates in early industrialised Britain certainly were higher in the growing towns and cities. That plus fashion (Queen Victoria's large family were a role model) pushed for larger families. The factors you identify in the modern world are very good indicators of the changes in fashion and the influence of increasing real income plus welfare reforms. You are absolutely right to draw attention to Astrology not being something that's totally independent of society.

Perhaps giving qualitative statements will be better, esp if the natives are in a country whose birth rates are unknown to the astrologer. But qualitative statements are not very helpful if the client doesn't have something to compare with, so either the client has to find out on his/her own what the average is, or the astrologer have to learn facts about the different parts of the world. (Which can be fascinating, if you ask me.)

But if the client wants quantitative statements, such as an answer to the question how many children will I have, then the Astrologer either evades the question or comes up with a rather vague statement such as 'more than one but less than many'

I should, of course, have looked at the 'full term' side. Queen Anne (50 years after Lilly's time) had 17 pregnancies, yet no child survived her. Very fertile but no successful production of an heir.

Most clients will have a good idea of the norms for their nation class age and time. However what they really want to know is personal, related to their own situation and they probably don't give much for comparative statistics. .