New book - "Explaining the Tarot"

[Ross G Caldwell]

So it could be that at some point early in the 1500s this Visconti deck became numbered. Thanks Ross. (More food for thought).


Bee

We're not talking about a Visconti deck in Piscina's or Anonymous' case.

The Visconti decks were never numbered, if you mean numbers on the cards. But don't confuse that with "order" - there is no reason to think the cards were ever NOT in a sequence or hierarchy.

To this day, Bolognese cards bear no names (even the court cards don't have printed names), and it wasn't until the late 18th century that some of the trumps got numbered. But they were always ordered in a hierarchy for play.

 

[Bernice]

We're not talking about a Visconti deck in Piscina's or Anonymous' case.

Ooops, apologies. I was using a visconti with the book (a mistake). I'll use the Noblet.

Currently, I'm leaning towards the discorse by Anon.......


Bee

 

[Ross G Caldwell]

Ooops, apologies. I was using a visconti with the book (a mistake). I'll use the Noblet.

Currently, I'm leaning towards the discorse by Anon.......


Bee

Ah, I see! Yes, not quite the same thing.

Noblet would be a pretty good choice for Piscina, at least (Anonymous is using a B or Eastern ordering, of which there are no surviving complete "decks", only sheets like the Met Museum and Budapest sheets (Kaplan, Encylopedia of Tarot vol. II pp. 270-284)). But any early TdM will be better than the Visconti cards to form an idea of what he was looking at.

 

[Bernice]

Anonymous is using a B or Eastern ordering, of which there are no surviving complete "decks", only sheets like the Met Museum and Budapest sheets (Kaplan, Encylopedia of Tarot vol. II pp. 270-284

Thank you Ross
Just disappearing for a bit to check if the Met Museum has scans, and if the Budapest sheets are online. (Hoping one or the other will be accessible).


Bee

 

[Huck]

Just disappearing for a bit to check if the Met Museum has scans, and if the Budapest sheets are online. (Hoping one or the other will be accessible).

http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/sheets/

 

[Bernice]

HI Huck,

Trionfi is a regular haunt of mine but I couldn't find pics of the eastern deck, so many thanks for posting the link here.


Bee

 

[Huck]

You searched ...

"Anonymous is using a B or Eastern ordering, of which there are no surviving complete "decks", only sheets like the Met Museum and Budapest sheets (Kaplan, Encylopedia of Tarot vol. II pp. 270-284"

...

... good luck, perhaps you find better ...

What do you understand with "Eastern decks"?

 

[Ross G Caldwell]

What do you understand with "Eastern decks"?

Tom Tadfor Little coined the term "Eastern" in at least 1999
http://www.tarothermit.com/ordering.htm
- as a more informative description than Dummett's "B" order.

By this, Dummett meant trump orders that are characterized by putting Justice between the Judgement and the World (and usually Temperance between Pope and Love). Lists with this order all seem to come from Ferrara or regions North and East of there (like Trent or Venice). Therefore, Little coined "Eastern" to distinguish them from "Western" (Milanese) orders, and "Southern" (Dummett's A), Bologna, Florence and everything south of there.

The Eastern order seems to have died out with Este rule of Ferrara, in 1598, and no example of a printed or painted deck with that ordering (at least explicitly) survives, as far as I know. Only those sheets.

Therefore, if trying to get into the mind of Anonymous, who is using the B/Eastern order, the only way to possibly have an insight into what he was looking at is to use those uncut sheets.

 

[Huck]

These look a little better:

A few cards went through Christie ... and brought about 12.000 dollars in 2002.

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/...5711&sid=dd6e77de-f975-420a-9400-3c30d97efaa3

The upper 5 are seen as a series of standard cards ... hm ... and it is spoken of Lucca and Orfeo style.

Lot Description

RENAISSANCE PLAYING CARDS -- An uncut strip of five Italian-suited cards from a regular pack, late 15th or early 16th century (93 x 240mm), printed in the xylographic manner, with stencil colouring in brick-red, to an obsolete design. From the left, the cards are: the Cavalier of Cups, King of Swords, King of Batons, King of Coins and Queen of Cups.

With two further woodcut cards (97 x 57; 98 x 56mm), the Queen of Batons and Trump XVIIII ('Judgement' or 'The Angel'), from an Italian-suited Tarot pack of so-called 'Orfeo' or 'Lucca' type, early 16th Century, possibly from the same workshop (minor losses, wear and occasional thin-spots on the reverse).

http://trionfi.com/0/g/72/

I'm not sure, that they're right with this "Orfeo and Lucca" idea.

 

[Bernice]

Thanks Huck!

I've just compared The Angel with the The Met Museum one. Christies' one is less clear, but it's good to see it in 'colour'.

The price = OMG!

Bee