Numbers ... & Thoth

[Spiffo]

I came across another thread that went awry (so thought to ask this question here), but there was mention of Qabalah Numbering. My questions is about any relationship between the Qabalah numbers and Thoth Card numbers; i.e.

Aeon is card 20, the Hebrew letter is worth 300 ...

I've got Liber 777, Liber T, and all manner of other comparative tables to browse but ... I'm a novice, I've got no perspective. I may well be looking for connections where there are none. Or I've read it and forgotten it. Can anyone offer any insight please?

Cheers Spiffo

 

[Spiffo]

ps, ... actually about numbers and Thoth in general. I've read a few things about meanings of numbers and so far it's either all been gobbledygook or contradictory.

 

[Zephyros]

That is a very interesting question, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how to answer it, as I don't know your frame of reference. Have you studied Qabalah? Perhaps it would help if you explained, in short, what you do or do not know.

 

[Spiffo]

That is a very interesting question, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how to answer it, as I don't know your frame of reference. Have you studied Qabalah? Perhaps it would help if you explained, in short, what you do or do not know.

Actually I think that's my problem, my frame of reference is just too limited, or scattered. I'm still working my way through the basics of the Tree.

But I can be specific about one thing that keeps cropping up during my meditations on the (Thoth) cards ... specifically the Majors/Atu. (I'm working through the Sephirot and the correspondences/relationships with the Minors/Elements - it's fun) Putting The Fool to one side, the Cards all have numbers, and they all correspond to Hebrew letters that in turn correspond to a Path on the Tree, again putting to one side the different thoughts on Tzaddi - Heh thing. So during my meditations I get mental-hiccups when I think about those numbers and what if any relationship they have to each other.

I'm reading about the numerical significance of the Hebrew letters, or rather how letter and number are part of each other, that's coming together in my mind.

Maybe it's just too early to be asking any questions. Thank You for any indulgence you show me.

Cheers Spiffo

 

[Zephyros]

Thank you, that clears up the question, unfortunately, I don't know the answer! I haven't seen references to the values of the letters when comparing Trumps, although that doesn't mean there aren't any. Dion Fortune and Robert Wang, at least, either bring it up in passing or not at all, I can't remember.

A few thoughts, though. One needn't put the Fool aside, as it has a number, two in fact. Zero is a number, the pure potentiality of all, and the value of Aleph is one. One might as well be zero, as it has no movement. This of course brings us to Keter, which is also both zero and one. One and zero also recall Chochma and Binah, the phallic and the restrictive (use your imagination).

For now, I would concentrate on the decimal Tree of Life, as I found it simple to understand, and you can take it anywhere from there. Where Gematria does come in handy is when reading the Book of Law, especially in conjunction with the Sepher Sephiroth. Personally I don't subscribe to seeing meanings in every numerical coincidence, but it does add more food for thought. Look at the study threads on the Book of Law for some excellent demonstrations.

 

[Spiffo]

Thank you, that clears up the question, unfortunately, I don't know the answer! I haven't seen references to the values of the letters when comparing Trumps, although that doesn't mean there aren't any. Dion Fortune and Robert Wang, at least, either bring it up in passing or not at all, I can't remember.

A few thoughts, though. One needn't put the Fool aside, as it has a number, two in fact. Zero is a number, the pure potentiality of all, and the value of Aleph is one. One might as well be zero, as it has no movement. This of course brings us to Keter, which is also both zero and one. One and zero also recall Chochma and Binah, the phallic and the restrictive (use your imagination).

For now, I would concentrate on the decimal Tree of Life, as I found it simple to understand, and you can take it anywhere from there. Where Gematria does come in handy is when reading the Book of Law, especially in conjunction with the Sepher Sephiroth. Personally I don't subscribe to seeing meanings in every numerical coincidence, but it does add more food for thought. Look at the study threads on the Book of Law for some excellent demonstrations.

This is why I like this forum ... thank You. Although it is so late here that my ability to respond is limited. I will though.

 

[Always Wondering]

Do you enjoy Paul Foster Case? He does a good job on these basics, including the numbers 0-9, astrology, (including a great explaination of the symbols) and qabalah, in Occult Fundimentals.

http://www.amazon.com/Occult-Fundamentals-Spiritual-Unfoldment-Vol/dp/098189772X

The science of number is at the foundation of practical occultism, as it is at the foundation of every department of human knowledge.

Here is an example of 2 as it has one of the shorter entries.

2.Duplicity; repetition, reflection, antithesis, opposition, polarity, continuation, succession, sequence, diffusion, separation, radiation, secondariness, subordination, dependence. Sub-consciousness.

If I understand you correctly, I don't think the numbers are going to all line up in a neat little package. At least I could never get them to. Even if they did once Crowley's switch took care of that. I found it the most confusing thing.

AW

 

[Zephyros]

If I understand you correctly, I don't think the numbers are going to all line up in a neat little package. At least I could never get them to. Even if they did once Crowley's switch took care of that. I found it the most confusing thing.

This is very true. I found that it all made much more sense once I stopped trying to make it make sense, and accepted that it isn't all completely internally or externally consistent.

 

[ravenest]

ps, ... actually about numbers and Thoth in general. I've read a few things about meanings of numbers and so far it's either all been gobbledygook or contradictory.

Have you read the (brief) outline of 'The Naples Arrangement' in the BoT ? I found that helpful to understand the essence of what numbers are and how each one progressively generates an idea and corresponding sephiroth.

 

[Spiffo]

Thank You all, I'm looking for connections where there aren't any, or at least don't need to be any rather than just concentrate on basics. Having gone back to BoT and re-read the opening sections I feel a bit more grounded (not something I thought I'd say about reading anything in BoT). See, still so much to read let alone learn.

I've got Case's Intro to Study of Tarot which has (a similar) outline as mentioned.

I've got an extra Thoth Deck that I'm building a 'Tree' with leaves of post-it notes. I'm going to try and not let my mental-hiccups distract me so much. I have the odd thought and they normally can't be raised in conversation. I've found even mentioning I'm interested in Tarot raises eyebrows, let alone anything to do with Crowley or Qabalah.

I'm finding a wealth of stuff in the BoL threads ...