Plato's Theory of Forms and Tarot

[Alissa]

I've been playing with this idea for a long time... let's see if I can find time to try and type it out.

...About 4,000 years ago, when I was in college, I remember discussing Plato's Theory of Forms in my Philosophy 101 class. Because the toddler is mauling me and I have about 5 minutes to compose this thread, I can't explain in depth his theory, but if you'd like to read more about it, start here.

I have often thought to myself that reading Tarot is like having a flashcard which is pointing to the Form that is in action. Which is why we get so squirrelly with pinpointing what a card "means" and why keywords can become cumbersome because they only capture one part of the overall meaning of a card. When trying to capture this Something Else that is a much larger and more complex notion, simple definitions break down.

But a good Tarot reader can interpret the Form, not the card. The tarot card is the pointer to the Big Picture.

In Philo class, we discussed how the word "chair" conveys an immediate understanding to the listener, but when trying to convey more in depth? It breaks down. Does "chair" mean padded, or unpadded; four legs, or three; wooden, or fabric, or both; does it recline; is it green or brown or red, does it belong in a house or in a car?

And the answer to all of those qualitative definitions is yes! A chair can be all of these things, and none of these things, because these descriptives don't convey the essence of what a "chair" really is. Chair is the Form. The descriptives? Not so relevant.

In Tarot, we say "Nine of Cups" and then we start trying to categorize and define this Form that is a part of our spread. And then we start using keywords, and stories, and descriptives, to try to make this Form intelligible to our sitter, but at the end of the day? The essence can remain elusive.

Tarot is like having 78 pictures that point to Forms, and then we grab at these abstracts and start using concrete ideas, material reality, to convey sense and meaning to that which is still, well, abstract.

...Sigh. I didn't do a very articulate job of expressing what I'm thinking, but it's the best I can do with a naked toddler screaming and running in circles, while tossing his truck at the dog.

To those who are familiar with Plato's Theory of Forms, what say you? Do you see the correlation between Form, and Tarot's ability to point to a Form as an aswser to the questions we ask?

 

[JSNYC]

...Sigh. I didn't do a very articulate job of expressing what I'm thinking, but it's the best I can do with a naked toddler screaming and running in circles, while tossing his truck at the dog.

No, actually I think you did an excellent job!

To those who are familiar with Plato's Theory of Forms, what say you? Do you see the correlation between Form, and Tarot's ability to point to a Form as an aswser to the questions we ask?

Yes!!! I have actually wanted to compose a post focusing on the definition of a "Tarot Archetype" for the precise reason you wrote this post. I am not familiar with Plato's Forms, but it sounds like a Form is essentially synonymous with a archetype. (Now I want to read more on this!)

It is a very simple concept really, and one I completely believe. The individual Tarot cards (and their definition) are not important, it is the interaction within the whole that gives them meaning. To use your terminology, the Form they point to is the meaning, not the Tarot card.

It appears to me that so many readers focus on the cards and the images on the card, the symbolism, the history, etc. And I view that stuff as almost irrelevant, it is the Form they point to that is really important! Learning the cards is necessary to begin learning the Form, but the goal is to learn the Form, not the card or image.

 

[Astraea]

I didn't do a very articulate job of expressing what I'm thinking

On the contrary, I think you have expressed these ideas beautifully.

To those who are familiar with Plato's Theory of Forms, what say you? Do you see the correlation between Form, and Tarot's ability to point to a Form as an aswser to the questions we ask?

Indeed I do. Plato's use of the term "form" (unfortunate translation!) refers to the essence of a thing (its "chair-ness," to use your example), rather than its physical manifestation; so this coming-together of Plato's theory of forms with individual cards as vehicles for the ideas behind them makes perfect sense, and opens wide vistas for divinatory interpretation.

Owing to the limitations of language, when we think of the word "form" today, we typically associate it with the appearance or visible presence of a thing - whereas Plato was describing the idea underlying what is seen. Indeed, form in the Platonic sense precedes even patterns or templates, being the tendency of a thing to appear in certain ways (i.e., archetypally) as the reflection of what it inherently IS, beyond all descriptives.

I love what you say about us getting squirrely over what particular cards signify - we sense that there is a whole world of meaning behind every card, and we struggle to find the skeleton key(word) that will open the door to the kingdom.

Beautifully presented, Alissa. Thank you! You have provided rich food for thought.

 

[Astraea]

it sounds like a Form is essentially synonymous with a archetype.

Strictly speaking, the archetype is an emanation of a form and not the form, itself. An archetype is the tendency of an idea to present itself along certain lines, to pattern itself in a way that reflects the form behind it.

Nowadays, when we think of the word "archetype," we tend to focus on the psychological structure or framework supporting specific internal images, such as The Great Mother, The Wise Old Man, the Divine Child, and so on - whereas the archetype, itself, is the impetus, energy or dynamic that determines what the pattern will be.

 

[Annabelle]

Rich food for thought, indeed!

Alissa, I'm so glad you posted about this, as it's something I've pondered over for many evenings myself.

Sadly, a migraine headache, a strained back, and some serious pain meds are preventing me from leaping into the discussion at the moment.

Suffice it to say, I'm often conflicted as a reader. I like to go with immediate impressions, feelings, sensations -- yet, I sense something deeper within the cards themselves and the "Platonic" level of things(?) ideas(?) that they represent. In short, I often suspect I'm missing something.

And then there's the symbolism in the cards, and the greater / higher / overarching things that those symbols stand for.

But I literally cannot see straight at the moment. I'll rejoin the conversation when I'm feeling a bit better .

 

[JSNYC]

Strictly speaking, the archetype is an emanation of a form and not the form, itself. An archetype is the tendency of an idea to present itself along certain lines, to pattern itself in a way that reflects the form behind it.

I think that is how some people define "archetype", but I don't believe that is what an archetype is. I was unable to find a definitive definition for archetype, it has been used numerous ways by numerous people throughout history. (Note: I am not speaking of Jungian archetypes, he was just another person to use that word.)

I need to read more on Forms so I can speak more intelligently on this though... However, I love the concept that Alissa presented whether it is a Form or an archetype!

 

[AJ]

Thank you for bringing the idea to someone with no college. your presentation is clear as glass and thought provoking.

 

[Psy]

...Sigh. I didn't do a very articulate job of expressing what I'm thinking, but it's the best I can do with a naked toddler screaming and running in circles, while tossing his truck at the dog.

Hahahaha!!!! Poor dog XD!

To those who are familiar with Plato's Theory of Forms, what say you? Do you see the correlation between Form, and Tarot's ability to point to a Form as an aswser to the questions we ask?

Totally, i believe that's the main reason the cards where pictures and not just words. Both because "A picture can say more than a thousand words", and because language is a beautiful tool, but oh so incredibly limited .
What i mean is i totally agree: i believe that the cards are there as just a symbol, and index, to something that "cannot be truly percieved, but which is the very start of the sensations we have through our limited senses", like the Forms of Plato.

Awesome idea, thanks for sharing .

John

 

[Debra]

Oh I like this, Alissa!

Common synonyms for "forms" in Plato are "ideals" or "ideas." They are abstract, perfect, unchanging and eternal.

I think that "archetype" carries social and psychological connotations that are lacking in the Platonic concept of ideal forms.

"Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens" pretty much describes the world of Platonic forms.

Oh what the hell, have a listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zNdMc6wGtU

 

[Alissa]

Fabulous, I made sense and communicated to adults! I'm stuck in the mode of "When your pee pee needs to come out, you have to sit on the potty," for means of communication lately.

On simple descriptives, versus Form: It's a dichotomy. Because on one hand, I find the illustrations of a card can be extremely useful in assisting me in a reading to get to strange and random details that can help my sitter in validation. So in that sense, "capturing" a card by using detailed description can be useful.

But on a larger scale, I sense that the true Essence or Form of the card remains elusive. Maybe it is the High Priestess *in action* -- we sense this Something More but what it is, where it is, how we find it? All this remains elusive. Close, but still behind the veil.

For example, a card comes up in this imaginary reading : The Empress... yes she's a mother, but she's not just a mother. Maybe it's the sitter's mother that's being brught up, but maybe it's really her need to nurture others which is presenting itself.

Or maybe, it's even more abstract, and it means the sitter is longing to take her inspiration and turn it into a work of art. Each example points to the same Form of the Empress.

In every example, she's creating, she's gestating, she's a mother but not always a mother to a child, she's taking shapelessness and giving it a form the way the Empress' womb takes the inspiration of the fertilized egg and gives it a form.

...And it keeps buzzing inside my mind... the Empress. Form. Giving form to that which is formlessness. The Theory of Forms.

[I remember a conversation I had years ago with Umbrae. He was helping pour concrete into molds for columns, and I told him he was being the Empress. He laughed and I was thankful that other people in this world "get" my weird humor.]

But it's still the Empress. And at the end of the day, all of these examples describe the Empress, but they don't capture her Form, they don't truly convey that which she ultimately is, in her highest Platonic Form.

One last idea... is it more accurate to describe using purpose rather than appearance? To go back to the chair I mentioned, the word conveys a purpose which transcends the descriptives of wood, or red, or used in a house.

If we could describe the Purpose behind each Tarot card's Form, would that more useful in crafting a meaningful Tarot reading? What would each card describe to us as their Purpose in our lives?

...It may be that I am calling on my Faery background here, because the Fae Forms are much easier for me to understand, and the Fae do carry Purpose in their appearance, so it is natural to ask a Faery in an oracle reading, why are you here? What purpose do you serve by appearing to me?

And at the end of the day? I really believe if the Tarot cards could talk to us, they would all ultimately claim the same purpose: to build compassion.

Nine of Pentacles, why are you here, what is your purpose? "I am teaching you compassion by showing you how it feels to be scared and alone, to be fearful and in pain."

Three of Cups, why are you here, what is your purpose? "I am here to teach you compassion, by showing you fellowship, joy and companionship."

All roads lead to Rome. All paths lead to Compassion. Every lesson we learn on Earth Realm is to teach us compassion. I do believe this.

p.s. Psy, yes poor dog! He is a sweetheart, and as Big Boss Mommy I always step in so he doesn't get really hurt by the attentions of the 2 year old. (It was a Hot Wheels car.) But I hoped to convey the noisy, scattered environment of the house so if my posts are scattered and noisy as well, I won't be held culpable! lol