Pluto

NamasteIndia

My sons geography book says that Pluto is no longer a planet
Strange because earlier it was and very important part of astrology too.
And it had its effects like sudden combustion wherever it was placed in a chart.

I know of some cases where pluto in 4th house caused sudden heart attacks.
My pluto is in 10th house of career which gave me a roller coaster ride with career....

so what do you'll feel is pluto still a planet?
 

Minderwiz

Firstly, your son's geography book is correct - in the sense that Pluto was reclassified as a 'dwarf planet' as defined by the International Astronomical Union in 2006. Indeed it is not even the largest such body, a distinction that falls to Eris.

There's a large volume of Astronomical evidence which shows that Pluto was mis-classified as a Planet following it's original discovery in 1930, mainly related to a grossly inaccurate estimate of its size and it's extremely oblique orbit which is also such that for part of it's path it lies within the orbit of Neptune.

Now Astrologers quickly followed Astronomers in adopting Pluto as a planet but faced with Astronomy's recantation, they have largely kept with Pluto as an Astrological body. Much of the 'academic' Astrological argument in favour of Pluto is now based on the work of Richard Tarnas, who is a a 'cultural historian' and 'philosopher' but not an Astrologer (though these days that doesn't count for much).

Now I don't use Pluto, and indeed I don't think there's any Astrological justification for using it (though obviously I'm in a minority and Dave would seriously disagree with me) Part of the problem is that there's no serious work on assessing it's impact, mainly because no one seriously looks for other possible explanations (How many people with Pluto in the fourth actually do have heart attacks, or how many people with Pluto in the tenth have 'roller coaster' careers). Astrology is usually far more complex than a simple planet effect relationship. I have suggested elsewhere that there should be such an assessment but it went down like a lead balloon LOL

So the current situation is that Astrologers, like many other academic disciplines, follow what they were taught and don't seriously look for alternative explanations. I doubt this will change because any scientific analysis of Astrology would lead to the investigators being treated as laughing stocks and anyway, can Astrology be properly assessed by a modern scientific approach?
 

dadsnook2000

Pluto lives on

As Minderwiz noted, I disagree with him relative to Pluto's importance to astrologers.

I have recently read that Pluto has been reclassified as a planet, its former status, but I haven't verified that yet. Yes, Richard Tarnas has made quite a case for the relevance of the outer planets (Jupiter through Pluto) concerning their connection to archetypal meanings within astrology and mundane history of our world culture. Indeed his book, Cosmos & Psyche, is so huge and full of detailed information, that he may be the only person to have actually read every word. I have that book and it took me a long time to get through it.

However, others (long before Tarnas) have done extensive studies in terms of the numbers of charts carefully researched relative to the outer planets. I'm talking of Witte and Ebertin, the famous Germany astrologers of the early 1900s. Their books, A) Witte-Lefeldt, Rules for Planetary Pictures, and B) Ebertin, Combination of Stellar Influences, together represent a most extensive set of research projects on the planets and their relationship to individuals. Both these astrological researchers use midpoints, a tool for examining three-planet combinations and interpretations that are quite exact in their meanings.

Recently others have taken up the task of examining our ever-expanding astrological universe. Martha-Lang Wescott, a former student and close friend of mine, has researched asteroids and written about them more than any other astrologer. Phillip Sedgewick has been addressing the larger star field including comments, centaurs, dark holes and fixed stars -- as have others.

As our universe increases and our cultural-scientific-awareness-consciousness levels increase and become more complex, many feel that we need to be open to expanding our astrology on a comparable level. Rather than stick with the visible sky and planets of ages past, some of us are choosing to look at the new "visible-thru-other-eyes" sky of today and to explore what we find there. Will our use of these new components prove to be valid? Who can tell, but then, who can say "no, they won't be useful or applicable?"

Astrology is man's tool for seeking to equate himself to the meanings found in the perpetual universe through observational patterns down here and up there. As our sky expands, and as we expand, it seems only right that we seek to find and apply new patterns of thought. This seems to me to be much more rational than following ancient ways within a modern world. Dave
 

Minderwiz

I don't think Dave and I are going to agree on this one, so I don't really want to prolong the discussion - you will find our discussion in more detail in the thread:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=144335

I would though point out that Witte's Regelwerk für Planetenbilder was published in 1928, two years before Pluto was discovered - though Witte was a firm believer in the existence of trans-Neptunian planets, even beyond Pluto (following it's discovery) a theory which actually led to many not taking him seriously. In many ways he was right about the existence of such bodies, even if the Astrology was a little flaky. He died in 1941 which really is too soon after the discovery of Pluto to contribute much real consideration - a pity because he was an able man.

Much of Astrological theory sees the outer planets as important because they are heavy - both in mass and in their ponderous movement, that is supposed to have deep seated and long lasting effects, rather than the ephemeral effects of lunar or mercurial contacts. However the assessment of Pluto's size has proved to be massively (pardon the pun) wrong. Originally thought to be the same size as Earth, it has since been revised to have a mass of about 0.2% of Earth. Now there is still some uncertaintly over this and Astronomers' analysis of Pluto has been notoriously poor. However it does seem to be highly probably that Pluto is indeed a small fraction of the mass of Earth. So it's claim to be a heavy planet rests on it's extremely long orbit and indeed it's eccentricity and inclination actually take it outside the zodiac for much of it's orbit, it's position has to be projected onto the zodiac in order to give it a sign placement.

Witte and Ebertin tried to take a scientific approach to Astrology (which may or may not be misguided) but I know of no evidence that they actually tried to disprove any Pluto effect by searching for alternative explanations.

In many ways Pluto is a very interesting body - its existence and nature provides real challenges for Astronomy and also Astrology, Yes there are arguments for reinstating Pluto as a planet but if it happens then there are other bodies which will have to be so classified as well. I actually find it fascinating in many ways.

Incidentally Dave may be thinking of the resolutions passed in New Mexico in 2007 and Illinois in 2009 which claimed Pluto was unfairly downgraded and should be reinstated. These resolutions are of course based on Astronomical knowledge and nothing to do with Clyde Tombaugh being born in Illinois and a long time resident of New Mexico.

Edited to add

In June 2008 Pluto WAS reclassified but this time as the eponymous 'prototype' of a new group of objects called 'plutoids' - objects which are largely spherical in shape, have a circular orbit and intersect the orbits of other bodies beyond the orbit of Neptune. At the time of the classification Eris was the only other Plutoid (Eris is bigger and further out than Pluto), but clearly the classification is one to which more bodies can be added.
 

Bernice

If I include Pluto in my birth chart, it makes a semi-sq to both Sun & Jupiter. The 3-planet configuation is within a couple of mins of exactitude. They also have a few minor (very close) aspects with personal planets. So, naturally I bothered with reading up on Pluto.

Can't say that my life experiences bear out the meanings that Pluto has been said to confer (if that's the right word).

......I'd love to have won a beauty competition, or have a super/brilliant brain. Not so keen on the negative takes - but then I'm not into psycho-stuff. Well over-rated nowadays.



Bee :)
 

NamasteIndia

Vedic astrology was not taking into account pluto, uranus and neptune
but there was always a debate between vedic astrologers and western astrologers about this 3 planets
 

dadsnook2000

The sum total of outer-planet usage

Relative to the outer planets, the extraordinary volume of charts and writings that have been done over the last century is astounding. From all of this a body of correlation has emerged. While there is certainly debate about details of interpretation, the core meanings that can be associated with these newer planets have been established.

Over the past several decades the cutting edge of the exploratory wave has involved asteroids. A handful of them seem to be now the "norm" for inclusion in most charts.

Presently, that cutting edge of exploration involves the newer "planets" or dwarf planets that are out there beyond Neptune, and even the postulation of a giant gas planet four times the size of Jupiter is gathering momentum.

Size is not established yet as a key influencing factor. Enough physics research has been done to suggest that many logical rules may not apply. Nearby Suns such as Sirius can emit energy far exceeding our Sun's energy that reaches us. Every several months some other Sun or energy source floods us with energy in specific spectrums that exceed by thousands of times what we normally receive. The gravitational influences of nearby stars can be measured on our planet's movements. And, just to add confusion to the list many astrologers use hypothetical planets and make-believe Moons to their charts. Even the conjunction points of planets, as seen from Earth, appear to have a lasting imprint effect when one relates future transits to those points --- this can be a Sun-Moon eclipse or a Saturn-Pluto conjunction (representing terrorism) which relates to the 9-11 attack and other major attacks in the UK, Spain, the USS Cole, etc. There is too much out there to close our eyes and ignore.

As each of us becomes capable enough to work with these factors, I suggest that we should unleash our curiosity and explore. Its good for us, its good for astrology. Dave
 

Minderwiz

Since it's discovery in 1930 Pluto has progressed from 17 degrees 46 Cancer to 07 degrees 30 Capricorn, not yet half an orbit. This is the only period that we have DIRECT knowledge of Pluto and any possible Astrological effect. Of course it is objected that we can (and indeed do) correlate Pluto's previous positions with historical data. Any scientist knows that there is all the world of difference between Primary data - direct observation - and secondary data - the use of previously recorded data, not least because the latter has issues of accuracy and relevance. Unless we keep diaries over our life times, it's even difficult to recall accurately what happened 10 years ago, except for some events that stick in our mind but the rest is lost. All historical records are selective and incomplete, at best they may be used to corroborate current observations.

Now this of course does not disprove Pluto, it merely raises a fnoteof caution. in relation to retrospective analysis.

However even the volume of charts and writings, do not show much in the way of a development of Pluto's interepretation - it's Astrological meaning seems to have been established very quickly within the first 5 or 6 years. Brunhubner had produced a 'comprehensive' guide to the new planet as early as 1933 and in 1937 despite a note of caution Harrison defines Pluto as:

'A planet of action that signifies an attempt to throw off the accumulations that have resulted from the lethargy of Neptune and a desire to be free of the bonds the latter has imposed....It is therefore violent in its effects, which explains it's now known connection with illness and accidents. as well as its presence and import in the maps of musicians and the spiritually inclined on the one hand and the maps of criminals on the other. It is eruptive in nature and suggests freedom and explosive action'

Raymond Harrison, The Measure Of Life, 2nd edition. 1937

Clearly the volume of charts and writings had already reached a conclusion before 1937 and perhaps as early as 1933.

In part this was due to the hypothetical planets mentioned by Dave, one of which was called 'Pluto' and was advanced by Maurice Wemyss - Theosophist Astrologers had set their sights on 12 planets one ruler for each sign. They had even discussed which sign hypothetical Pluto ruled - some seeing Cancer, others seeing Scorpio.

There is though a more serious issue here and one which I don't see a solution to (at least in the short term). The Astrological Association of Great Britain claims that Astrology is a science, or at least a discipline, the rules of which can be taught to anyone who is then able to apply them.

However this is a great over simplification. Rules and procedures are indeed part of the process but a key part is the Astrologer him or herself. Astrology is an Art and the Artist skill is important but also his or her Weltanschaaung - philosophy and outlook on life.

Since the beginning of the twentieth Century the dominant Astrological orthodoxy has been based on Theosophical principles as extended and developed by principles based on the psychology of Jung. Uranus, Neptune and especially Pluto have been introduced into Astrology on the basis of these beliefs and indeed have in turn contributed to the establishment of these beliefs - to question Pluto is to question the Credo of modern Astrology and no orthodox Astrologer is going to do this. Eventually the orthodoxy will change and give way to a new one, that process may even have begun but in the meantime Pluto will still be essential to the mainstream Astrologer.

The key issue then, is not so much about the nature of Pluto but about your approach to and philosophy of Astrology. That Astrology can be still practiced without Pluto (or Uranus, Neptune, Chiron, etc) is shown by the work of Vedic Astrologers and Traditional Western Astrologers but neither of these will conform to the expectations of the Astrologer rooted in Jung and Rudhyar, etc. I don't have a problem with that and I certainly don't want to deny Dave or any other Astrologer their use of Pluto. I simply want them to be aware that there is Astrology without Pluto and that some caution about Pluto might not be a bad thing.

When it comes to the Chiron,asteroids, plutoids, Kuyper belt objects and indeed hypothetical planets, there is clearly two problems at least - the first is a Plutoesque rush to include them without proper consideration and the second, and even more important problem is the interrelationship of these objects both to the other established planets and to the process of Astrological interpretation. Simply bolting on new objects piecemeal is a recipe for confusion and eventual disaster, (and certainly the undermining of Astrology as a disciplined pursuit of knowledge). I think actually Dave agrees with me on that general point - a coherent methodology placed in the context of a clear philosophy is needed and there are certainly more than one way of achieving that aim.
 

Ronia

Hm, I'm a Scorpio and honestly, I relate much more to Pluto than to Mars. LOL

On a more serious note, I only recently found the strength to look on Astro.com the day when my father died (I was a child then) and I had double conjunction Sun over natal Pluto (8th house) and Pluto over natal Sun.
 

NamasteIndia

Energies of pluto does have effect on humans on the earth.