Poll: Cultural Revolution Tarot - Yes? No? Don't Care?

Do you want to The Cultural Revolution Tarot to be included on Aeclectic?

  • No

    Votes: 21 26.3%
  • Yes

    Votes: 39 48.8%
  • I don't care either way

    Votes: 20 25.0%

  • Total voters
    80

Holly doll

I posted this in another thread:

The creators of this deck have got exactly what they wanted - attention & controversy leading to hits on their FB page; IMO we're playing their game.

In proposing a ban, are we not skating close to some of the tenets of the CR...? Free speech is a privilege & also a carries a responsibility to acknowledge those ideas we don't agree with or find outright repugnant. Most history involves suppression of beliefs & sometimes outright genocide - the victors get to tell the story. Pagans, Native Americans, African Americans, Jews, Australian Aboriginals - the list goes on & grows ad infinitum. Suppression of beliefs & genocide is occurring now with various cultures - that's the bigger & more frightening picture.
Rather than a poll, vote with your wallet - don't purchase it - the creators will get the message when the registers aren't ringing.

ETA. Some decks come into being to provoke us in some way, shape or form. I know I get weirded out by DV's angel decks! }) A tarot deck is a tarot deck & is usually flavour of the month for a period of time... unless we choose to give it more oxygen than perhaps it deserves...
I don't like the deck, so I won't buy the deck; however I won't demand the deck be banned. Like everything else in this world - there is no black & white - only shades of grey, & we can't & shouldn't be the moral arbiters for others...
 

FLizarraga

For what it's worth, this is going to be my last post about the Cultural Revolution deck, ever.

I have watched this conversation go from surprised to heated to frankly callous and dismissive. Interestingly enough, it has grown callous and dismissive of the people who are against the deck, calling us enemies of freedom of expression, pearl-clutchers, "high and mighty" and I don't know how many more ugly things.

To all of you, and to the kids who are cobbling together that abomination, I say this with all my heart: I wish you never have to live through a revolution. I have.

I'll leave you with a little anecdote. I once asked a friend of mine, who is of Russian Jewish descent, if she ever thought about visiting the land of her ancestors. She told me this: "My grandmother left Russia when she was 13. She says that one of her earliest memories is of hiding in a haystack, paralyzed with fear, because there was a pogrom. Do you think that's a memory I cherish? Why would I want to go back there?"

You all have a good night.
 

jillkite

You know what? Take it down and within a few years there will be similar one. Leave it and let the critiques deal with it and then this probability won't be that high. People should be taught not only what the definition of "good" is, but what the definition of "bad" is. They should see so they can know in the future what is appropriate and what's not. Why do you want that chance taken away from people - For exaple future buyers who think the art is cute and they don't know what the is the deck really about? What about future deck creators who would have gotten similar idea? Do they have to make the art, publish it here and see this whole story repeating itself again with slight variations? Of course if they knew from the beginning that someone made similar choice to theirs in the past and how it end up they would consider and perhaps would put the time and effort in something which could be beautiful. I don't think that if we take it down we honour in some way people who have suffered these horrible events. We just makre more space for another horrible deck dedicated to some horrible event or not-so peaceful ideology.

So I am saying "yes" to informed choices.

I really like this response, it gives a detailed positive reason why it should be included, and is not directly critical of those with a different point of view.

It's a shame, but the discussion about this deck is spread over 3 threads... so a little hard to know if everyone is on the same page with what they have read.

I'm not personally offended by the deck, but to give some context I am currently living in Dharamsala, India. For those who are not aware, this is the home of the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in Exile. There are many many Tibeten refugee communities spread throughout India. Tibetans still escape from China on foot over the Himalayas every year. Some are permanently disabled by frostbite, some get shot dead by Chinese soldiers, some manage to make it in one peice, to start a new life as refugees with nothing but their Spiritual freedom in one of the poorest countries in the world. Tibetans inside Tibet are still a very persecuted minority. They are not even allowed to keep a photo of their Spiritual Leader, the Dalai Lama. It is against the law, they will be severely punished if they are found with such a photo.

During the Cultural Revolution the Chinese govenment told the Tibetans that they were being 'liberated'. So clearly people have very different concepts about what is Liberty.....

I have visited Tibet and seen the after effects of the Cultural Revolution there. So being here, surrounded by a Tibetan community, visiting temples and monastreys that they have rebuilt here, but that aren't anything near what was destroyed in Tibet, it was jarring to see a very cutesy deck about the Cultural Revolution....

Then on their Facebook page they proudly announce that they are going to be featured on Aeclectic soon and I felt :( . Because I like this site, but of course, I understand it is dedicated to the beauty and DIVERSITY of the tarot. I do understand that.

In the other thread I was wondering if there are any limits, if there are any boundaries about what gets put on here, and where this deck would fit: inside or outside of those boundaries. I was curious, rather than on a mission advocating censorship and repression. I don't advocate censorship and repression, but consideration of what is being presented. So as people say, take your stance, don't buy it. I also wondered if this site sometimes also takes a stance, and doesn't include a deck, for whatever reason.

Over on the other thread I asked if collectors would be adding this to their collection. But I didn't get any replies from collectors about that until this poll started. It seems to have taken this poll to have got more discussion going, but as I said, the discussion is now spread over various threads which is not ideal.

With regards to Freedom of Speech, of course it is hugely important. But I was never questioning if the deck should be created, published, promoted. Only questioning if there are boundaries here on Aeclectic about what gets included and what doesn't.

And I believe that even with 'Freedom of Speech' in the 'Land of the Free' there are exceptions. (e.g. I don't believe Islamic extremists are allowed to freely express their points of view, but please correct me if I am wrong.)

With regards to expressing views about this deck in a review, I have only looked at a few cards very briefly, enough to see that it's cutesy, that's it. There is no way I would want to go through this deck to give a comprehensive review, which I think is required. If I can do a review just based on my feelings about how the subject matter is being handled then that's fine. (If it does end up being on Aeclectic, but as I said, on the creators facebook page they are prouldy reporting that it will be on here...).

With regards to expressing views on Social Media, I thought of posting on the Facebook page for the deck, but then I thought they will just delete what I post and ban me. What's the point. So I decided to come here, to Aeclectic to express about this deck, as I trust that this is a place where people can express their feelings about different decks, no matter what they are. In both other threads I was asking the creator for their side of the story, but so far they have not responded to any of the recent posts on here.

And yes, I agree, from their point of view perhaps it's 'all publicity is good publicity'. But there is this feeling that a dark period of history in that part of the world, that is still very much felt to this day, is being seriously misrepresented. Yes, it's being given the Doreen Virtue treatment if you like, as if the Cultural Revolution was all rainbows and butterflies. It wasn't. I asked the creator how he would feel about presenting his deck to a group of Tibetan people. I am still waiting for a reply.

I also suggested that if his deck is expected to make money he might like to announce that he is donating some share to the Tibetan cause, as a gesture to acknowledge the wider story of the Cultural Revolution.

Where were the great powers of the world advocating the protection of Freedom of Speech and Self-Expression when the freedom of Tibet needed to be protected???

Oh yeah... counting the dollars to be gained from keeping things sweet with China... high principles indeed...

I leave you with a few photos from inside Tibet 2011, enjoy :)
 

Attachments

  • boyandhorse.jpg
    boyandhorse.jpg
    104.4 KB · Views: 94
  • majesticmountkailash.jpg
    majesticmountkailash.jpg
    87.9 KB · Views: 88
  • daily walkwithprayerbeadsandprayerwheel.jpg
    daily walkwithprayerbeadsandprayerwheel.jpg
    93.1 KB · Views: 104
  • motherandchild.jpg
    motherandchild.jpg
    77.8 KB · Views: 85
  • outwiththeflock.jpg
    outwiththeflock.jpg
    89.6 KB · Views: 91

Debra

I really can't deal with the "I am offended" stuff. It takes us nowhere, enlightens nobody and is just a dead end. If someone has been personally involved then that's a different issue. I can't be offended by proxy. It's another emotion, not offended. Sounds so high and mighty.

But I don't really want to get drawn into defending a deck I don't even like. I wouldn't buy it and I think it's tasteless (not a word I generally use). Enough.

I feel this trivializes the discussion.

People opposing the glorification of brutal tyranny are not "offended" in some optional, voyeuristic, holier-than-thou, "oh my sensibilities are too delicate," fashion. They are disgusted, sickened, outraged, because the Cultural Revolution was systematic, widespread, government-led savagery with millions of victims. When I was in China, people were still talking about how their families had been tortured, brutalized, dehumanized.

The deck and the accompanying text are big lies, about murder. Taking a stand against atrocity is the right thing to do.

I voted no.
 

trzes

After all I think I should have voted for "I don't care" too. Freedom of speech is not in danger if Solandia as the owner of a private website should decide that she doesn't wan't to give this deck more credit than it already has. I personally would prefer to see the maximum diversity possible on Aeclectic, but that's just me. Both stances seem equally reasonble to me.
 

Catmoon

THIS :thumbsup:

So yes, it should be featured on AT... but given zero stars or maybe a special 'in poor taste' warning symbol.

Second that, even what earthair quoted!!!!
 

Le Fanu

Last post on this

When I was in China, people were still talking about how their families had been tortured, brutalized, dehumanized.
To all of you, and to the kids who are cobbling together that abomination, I say this with all my heart: I wish you never have to live through a revolution. I have
As I said - and will say again - there is a difference between those who are personally involved and have every right to feel whatever they feel and those who are outside and are feeling offended in hindsight. What I feel about historical atrocities of course has nothing whatsoever to do with those who lived through them.

I really don't care about this deck. But people can create whatever they want.

ETA; haven't voted. I think the discussions about whether it should be *included* a bit pointless.
 

Nemia

Concerning the Daniloff - I beg to differ.

The Daniloff USSR tarot is a highly complex and sophisticated and ironical de-construction and re-construction of propaganda posters. These Soviet Realist propaganda poster themselves still showed their roots in Russian avantgarde and modernism art - Larionov, Goncharova, Popova etc, artists who revolutionized art individually and radically. Their aesthetic was instrumentalized later into a flat tool of propaganda. Daniloff approaches this ambivalent heritage of modernism vs tyranny brilliantly.

Absolutely no comparison with the simple minded provocation I see on the FB pages. Indeed it's shocking that even today there are people ignorant enough not to know what the Cultural Revolution was and finding anything positive and liberating in a tarot deck that color-washs as mass murder. Indeed a Stalin Purge Tarot or My Heroic SS Tarot or Armenian Holocaust Tarot would be the suitable parallel, if done in an uncritical simplistic way.

It's tasteless, it's stupid, it's offensive to every human being with a conscience.

It's Solandia's choice of course whether she includes this deck on AT.

I voted for including it - because I want people who look it up on Google and don't know what the CR was to learn about it. I don't think that putting it under the carpet would help, much as I dislike it.

For years, National Socialist propaganda art was not shown in Germany. I always found this decision questionable because showing it also shows how shallow and downright amateurish it was. In the last years, there is a broad discussion about such matters and works like Ziegler's horrible Four Elements are shown in their context. I think it's better to pull these teeth in the open.

Disgusting as it may be.
 

Thunder

I'm not personally offended by the deck, but to give some context I am currently living in Dharamsala, India. For those who are not aware, this is the home of the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in Exile. There are many many Tibeten refugee communities spread throughout India. Tibetans still escape from China on foot over the Himalayas every year. Some are permanently disabled by frostbite, some get shot dead by Chinese soldiers, some manage to make it in one peice, to start a new life as refugees with nothing but their Spiritual freedom in one of the poorest countries in the world. Tibetans inside Tibet are still a very persecuted minority. They are not even allowed to keep a photo of their Spiritual Leader, the Dalai Lama. It is against the law, they will be severely punished if they are found with such a photo.

I wasn't aware of the way Tibetians live in Tibet with much detail. I am aware ot this now because there is a discussion in AT forum wheather the admin should include one deck. It may seem a little thing but I believe that if we want to make better world we should bring more awareness of the problems which exist and then we can change them. This information is a small step towrds that.

Then on their Facebook page they proudly announce that they are going to be featured on Aeclectic soon and I felt :( . Because I like this site, but of course, I understand it is dedicated to the beauty and DIVERSITY of the tarot. I do understand that.

In the other thread I was wondering if there are any limits, if there are any boundaries about what gets put on here, and where this deck would fit: inside or outside of those boundaries. I was curious, rather than on a mission advocating censorship and repression. I don't advocate censorship and repression, but consideration of what is being presented. So as people say, take your stance, don't buy it. I also wondered if this site sometimes also takes a stance, and doesn't include a deck, for whatever reason.

I am on the same page with everyone who doesn't agree about this deck being included in terms of showing symphathy of the suffering of these people. I agree that liberty of speech shouldn't be used to consciously use the suffering of some community to make cheap "controversial" art. Now there are three topics which we discuss the deck in but within a week or two there would be none. I think it's not pleasant, but an example if we let the community show its disagreement with the concepts of that deck in the forms of ratings and reviews in the pages usually visited by potential buyers and let the bad taste and the unestablished values of creators play its role.

You are asking if there are limits and boundaries about what is put and you are right to ask about that, but what does it mean to you if some deck you want to buy is not included in AT? Doest it mean it's bad, poor taste? Does it mean it's not good enough? No, there are various reasons why a deck is not on AT collection. Normally this is what people who want to buy CR Tarot would think if they don't find it here.

But then again the argument that this is a private site stays because this is not public institution which has the task of maintaining the society. I can get and understand that, but the social media has a lot of power and infliuence over the society and AT is fundamental for the Tarot community - at least I see it that way. If all the roads led to Rome once, now all the internet searches for tarot-related topics lead to AT. What I mean is an internet user who dosn't find a deck they are interested in at AT dosn't make it much of a deal, because this user knows that not every deck is included in AT. Internet user who finds the deck they are searching for at AT and see bad reviews and low ratings is different thing,, it will surely put him on the fence about that one.

I don't enjoy this deck too. Even if it wasn't the theme, I don't enjoy the art at all. I am pretty sure such thing wouldn't have existed in a society where compassion comes before money and popularity. The CR Tarot is not the problem it's a product of the values of some people and they are the ones who need more awareness. Sometimes that awareness comes in the form of a fall for their personal creations and it's actually a good thing if we leave that lesson to play its role.

I leave you with a few photos from inside Tibet 2011, enjoy :)

I get the real atmosphere from these photos ... thanks for sharing!
 

Sulis

Yes. If you find it offensive, say so by posting a critical review. Educate others by talking about the reality of the situation, and shine a light on this attempt at revisionist history. Do exactly what the Cultural Revolution tried to stop- truth telling, self-expression, and both moral and intellectual objections to political structures.

This..
I voted yes.