How nice to come home and find some delicious posts waiting for me!
First: What do you do with the court cards, do you have any special system for them? Do you relate them to the trumps in any way, or do just you see them as four different manifestations of their suit meaning?
You may have missed some of the earlier posts in this thread. Freddie had some interesting ideas:
Freddie said:
Valet = The Moon - a bit murky and obscure, but the intial 'go forth' feeling is there.
Valet of Swords - dangerous enemy, lack of emotional intelligence.
Knight = The Sun - The lights are on, but the person is still exploring their new found conciousness, so he/she is not a fast thinker and mover just yet. Gut reactions rule.
Knight of Coins - Good intentions, hardworker, but slow and plodding.
Queen = Judgement - Higher conciousness has taken place. The obscurity and murkiness are gone. The person is more able to act than the previous two cards.
Queen of Wands - Wonderful gift of gab, friendly person.
Queen of Swords - hateful, ability to cut heads to get what she/he wants and won't feel bad about it. Can use intellect to justify actions.
King = The World - Intellect has now entered the picture and the person has reached a level of being able to do the 'dance of life' has the ability to execute their own divine will.
King of Cups - Happy family man, likes to est, drink and be merry. Wants love and doesn't care as much about worldly satisfaction as others.
My ideas were as follows:
Lee said:
I was thinking in terms of simply continuing on from the X. So that would give us:
Page = XI Strength
Knight = XII Hanged Man
Queen = XIII Death
King = XIV Temperance
In this scheme, the Page might symbolize a gentle, nonaggressive approach; the Knights, identification with a cause to the extent of being willing to sacrifice the self; Queens take on a Kali-like sharpness, intelligence, and willingness to use unsympathetic or unsentimental means; and the Kings would show a wisdom sort of like that of the ideal ruler in the Tao Te Ching: "For governing a country well, there is nothing better than moderation." And each of these would have their corresponding negative sides as well (Pages, lack of ambition; Knights, fanaticism; Queens, cruelty ["Off with their heads!"]; and Kings, overly concerned with harmonious relations.
I'm intrigued by my own idea but I have to admit I haven't actually tried it out yet. So far I've been using very simple categories for the courts (Page=learning, Knights=focusing, Queens=encouraging, Kings=controlling), or I've simply been using their visual impact in the spread without considering fixed meanings. But I think I'm going to try the Strength/Hanged Man/Death/Temperance scheme and see how it goes.
le_charior said:
Second:
As much as I like the idea of the whole system being self contained - isn't numerology already present as well, just by the pure fact that there are let's say fice cups pictured, or one sword, or ten? Even without the roman numerals which might have been added later? I am always a bit hesitant to use numerology for the trumps because who knows if the order etc is the right one, but for the pips I feel numerology is alread contained. Then of course the reference, which system of numerology we use for our interpretation, that is outside the cards.
An excellent and interesting point. The way I see it, I'm not using numerology in my system. The reason I say that is because I'm using the number merely as a way of attaching the pip card to a trump card. I'm not considering any qualities that might be seen as inherent in the number itself. For example, a numerological approach might tell us that 2s are about interactions between two entities, 3s are about something being born from the 2, 4s are stable because stability is achieved on four legs, etc. In my system (I say "my system" but I've only stolen parts of other people's systems), 3s are about the Empress only because the Empress happens to be numbered III, and it has nothing to do with an inherent "three-ness" of the Empress. To put it another way, I care nothing about the number itself.
But isn't our whole reference system, how we see the images etc, coming from outside the cards? If we see the little bird on the tree behind L'Etoile - doesn't our way of interpreting that bird come from a place that is "other" than the place the creator of the card? I think there is no way of forgetting all we know now and get back into the head of a renaissance card player (or someone who used the cards for something else), so the whole idea of "self-contained" doesn't really work for me.
Yes, quite right. The way we read the cards can never be completely self-contained, because if it were, the cards would simply sit on the table and we wouldn't be reading them at all. The whole definition of reading is that we let the cards suggest things to us, and for that we need to bring to the cards our consciousness, our subconscious, or cultural backgrounds, our experiences, etc.
But I'm making a distinction between what I call a "direct" reference (i.e. the Emperor represents earthly power or an authority figure because that is how most of us think of emperors) and an "indirect" reference (i.e. 5s are disruptive because they relate to the fifth sephirah (Geburah) on the Cabalistic Tree of Life). In other words, "indirect" references take us to a completely different esoteric system which is outside the tarot, and we must make two mental leaps (one from the card itself to the corresponding symbol in the other system, and the second one to figure out what the symbol in the other system means) instead of one.
Now, of course to interpret the pip cards in any way (other than Enrique's visual way, and the point of my system is to use the visual way combined with a system-based interpretation), we need to relate them to something. What shall we relate them to? Numerology-based meanings would be based on qualities seen in numbers. Astrology-based meanings would be based on qualities as seen in planets or signs or houses. Cabala-based meanings would be based on qualities as seen in the sephiroth on the Tree of Life. Each of these systems requires reliance on a non-tarot system.
In my system, I relate the pips to the correspondingly-numbered trumps, and it has nothing to do with those numbers themselves. The numbers are only place-markers used to connect them to the trumps. So, while we are using something other than the pip cards to interpret the pip cards, the "something other" is our interpretation of the trump cards, rather than our interpretation of a non-tarot something.
Third:
Order. Do you have any hesitations about the order of the trumps? Could you adapt the method to read, let's say, with the Vieville deck which has a different order in the trumps?
Well, let's find out.
Vieville trumps:
1 - Magician
2 - Popess
3 - Empress
4 - Emperor
5 - Pope
6 - Lovers
7 - Justice
8 - Chariot
9 - Strength
10 - Wheel
This doesn't present much of a problem. Justice and Chariot have switched places, but since I don't care at all about the numbers themselves, this doesn't matter at all. The only significant change is that Strength and the Hermit have switched places, which means we have lost the Hermit ("Discrimination" in my system) and gained Strength. Interestingly, I was just this morning discussing by PM with someone about whether we can use Strength instead of Justice for card 8. It seems to me we can certainly put Strength to good use. As I wrote in my PM this morning:
Lee said:
For Strength, my approach would be to search around for a concept that would fit in well with and round out the other 1-10 trumps. Common concepts like inner strength or patience or whatnot don't excite me too much. Sometimes I see the Strength card as like a precursor to the Devil card, because in the Strength card we're embracing and using shadow energies rather than repressing them. So perhaps for Strength I would use a keyword (or keyphrase) "Embracing the Shadow" (i.e. acknowledging less pleasant aspects of ourselves so that we can use that energy to help us in our lives). Then I'd take the four suits and try to come up with some phrases specific to each suit.
So for the Vieville we would lose "Discriminate" as a keyword for the 9s and have "Embracing the Shadow" instead. Why not?
I know there are other TdMs with different numbering, but I think the Vieville is probably the only one of these that any of us is likely to be reading with, since the rest are only in museums.
And, fourth and last (for now!):
Is it a problem for you that you only consider half of the trumps sequence? You made clear that you don't include the second half, but I feel as if it was unjust in a way to only use the principles symbolized by the first half for the pip meaning, if you do this kind of correlation.
Teomat had a really good post on this earlier in the thread:
teomat said:
I sometimes use the pip-trump method, but use trumps XI-XX for the reversed pips. And I think there CAN be a connection between the two (some of which can be very thought-provoking, almost as if they are meant to be connected):
I (Magician) and XI (Strength) - mental strength and physical strength, mind over matter/matter over mind etc
II and XII - knowledge and ignorance
III and XIII - life and death
IV and XIV - rigidity and fluidity
V and XV - speaks for itself!
VI and XVI - union and break-up
VII and XVII - war and peace
VIII and XVIII - clarity and confusion
IX and XIX - introvert and extrovert
X and XX - life's uncertainties and life choices
I really like teomat's keywords here. So (if I understand him correctly) you could use "mental strength" (Magician) for Aces upright, and "physical strength" (Strength) for Aces reversed; "knowledge" (Popess) for 2s upright, "ignorance" (Hanged Man) for 2s reversed, etc. Teomat's is the only scheme I've seen that provides a convincing correlation between the "lower 10s" and the "upper 10s".
If I were going to use reversals in reading, I would do something very much like this (or use it exactly). I tend not to use reversals, though. For one thing, it limits what TdM decks you can use, since only some TdMs have clearly discernible indicators on the pip cards for which direction is which (for example the Fournier Marseille) (unless one wants to mark the cards, ugh). For another thing, it would play havoc with the second half of my system, which is to use the visual impact of the cards a la Enrique. Teomat's is still an intriguing system, though, and one I may explore in the future.
Also, I like to keep things simple. 10 trumps, 10 pips -- that I can handle!
To me there seem to be important principles, especially negative ones missing - the first half of the trumps is all sunshine and roses and happiness - only with the Wheel the dark side is introduced: death, treason, night, destruction etc etc... I am usually all for happy-go-lucky readings and being positive, but I thought about this and I would like to know what you think.
Well, the "further" trumps (XI through XX) are still available in the deck as trumps; we're not removing them from the deck, and they will still come up in readings.
But you make a good point about positive/negative. I neglected to make clear in my original post that I deliberately structured my keywords so that they could be negative as well as positive. For example, III (Empress) "Care for" could be to smother with too much attention. VIII (Justice) "Equalize" could be to be too willing to compromise. 4 of Wands "Taking charge of an endeavor" could be too bossy. 5 of Coins "Charity; spending altruistically" could be giving too much to others to the point where you endanger yourself. And so on.
le_charior said:
Thanks again for sharing this, Lee, and happy to exchange and learn with and from you! I continue to be thrilled by the wonders and possiblities of the Marseille tarots, and it is beautiful to see different ways to give them meaning (or to get the meaning out of them pip cards!
)
Thank
you for resurrecting this thread and asking such good questions! I'm having a great time with this system and this conversation. I too am delighted to learn with and from you, and everyone in this thread and on this forum.