Relocation charts and Progressions

[franniee]

Hi Guys,

My husband was born in Piraeus Greece and moved to the US when he was 3. He was born November 28 1967 at 2:36PM. When I cast his chart years ago I dismissed the result because there is no way he is an Aries rising - his personality just didn't fit so I figured maybe there was a daylight savings hour lost somewhere and put him as a Taurus rising. Yesterday someone told me that I should have cast a relocation chart for him and that would put him as a Pisces rising...... how do I do that?

I have Kairon - it is a mac based casting program. If you would explain what I need to do I will figure out the specifics with the program. Thank you!

The other thing is how do I do a progression? They confuse me. So basically I shouldn't be reading my natal chart with the transits I should be looking at a progression and the transits effecting it?

Thanks,
Fran

 

[dadsnook2000]

The easy way

When you cast your husband's chart for Greece, look up the UT or Universal Time (Greenwich Meridian Time). Now go back and cast a chart for your New York location -- except use the UT and not the East Coast Time that is the equivalent of the 2:36 PM time in Greece. This will give you a relocated chart with an Ascendant near early Capricorn or so.

Progressions are chosen from a menu in most software programs. However, they can be done manually although there are some not obvious adjustments when it comes to dates. You need to use a reference source to guide you through the simple math and process.

As far as transits to a progressed chart --- it is my opinion that this is not a reliable approach to take. The progressed chart (such as a secondary progression) is set in symbolic time related to a time that once was. Transits are in current-real time. I know that some astrologers do this. I have not found it reliable (i.e. close to 1j00% workable in terms of specific applications). Dave

 

[Minderwiz]

There's a good body of Astrological practice, stretching back to at least the Seventeenth Century, that suggests casting relocation charts for permanent or semi-permanent relocations. In your case the distance moved certainly warrants it and the relocation is permanent in any real sense of the word.

Casting a relocation chart is easy, recalculate the birth chart for the same date but new location and remember to adjust the birth time (this is likely to be at least six or seven hours earlier at the new local time but please check precisely for the time difference between the two locations).

Alternatively you can simply relocate solar returns, and other derived charts for the new location, leaving the original birth chart to stand.

Complications arise if there are plenty of moves especially if the first move to the USA was to a different location than your present one and he spent his childhood and adolescence there, That will mean that he is a blend of perhaps several charts reflecting the major periods of his life and the influences on him. As a short cut simply relocate to your current location (using the appropriate birth time adjustment) and consider how his nature might be modified through the new chart, especially if there are planets in the new angles.

 

[franniee]

Thanks Dave!!!!! & Thanks Minderwiz!!!!!

OK 2:36pm in Athens is 12:36pm GMT/UT and it would be 5 hours earlier for NY. So I set his home to Syosset and plug in 12:36PM and I get 8 Pisc 28'03" - not Cap I've got his midheaven as 18 Sag 26'11".....did I do something wrong? Should it be 7:36AM? I can be very dense with the back and forth type calculations. Not sure why but they always seem to give me trouble. If it is 7:36AM NY time then he is a sag rising with his midheaven in libra. I don't think he is a sag rising. He isn't fiery. I am way more fiery! He can be a pisces rising. I can see that. He can also be taurus but it isn't coming up that way at all......


The moves early on were always to Queens and they were about a year apart. He lived in Greece for about 3 years and in Queens for 30 years. After we were married he moved into the city with me for 5 years which was maybe 10 miles away and when we moved out to LI 25 miles from the city. So each move was small enough - I think. We have been out here for 5 years. The relocation chart for him is essential. I knew there was something wrong with the chart I cast which is why I added an hour..... but this makes so much more sense!! Thanks!!!




As for the progressions ..... I had an astrological reading yesterday and the person who read my chart asked me if I ever cast a progressed chart. I think that is what she used to give me the details she did.

I want to understand what she saw. She didn't seem like she would be receptive to my questions. I can be quite intense when I want to learn something (As you guys know) so I didn't try too hard. I have to tell you, there is so much I don't know about astrology! I know the basics and I know aspects but she lost me! I got the reading with the thought that she would help me understand more about my chart but it seemed to just light up all I DON'T know!!!

She said something about an inconjunct with the ruler of my 8th house and how it is well aspected and that would indicate psychic ability. I have no idea what she is talking about. My 8th house is sag - so that would be Jupiter which is conjunct my midheaven and saturn...... and trined my sun. Where is the inconjunct and what is an inconjunct anyway. I figured the moon merc conjunction was the key to my readings....

I want to master this - any good books or sites I can go to learn?

 

[Minderwiz]

14:36 pm in Greece is indeed 12:36 GMT/UT but you can't use that time for a New York Chart - at 12:36 New York time he was already 5 hours old. So you either have software that allows you to enter the UT time for a non-UT location or you have to cast the chart for 07:36 (i.e. 7:36 AM) in New York.

The moving about you describe is unlikely to affect things particularly - any further relocations need to be a couple of hundred miles or more to make any significant difference and that's not guaranteed in every case. For a given mileage, movement East/West is much more significant than movement North/South. All places with the same Longitude will have the same MC but will have variation in the Ascendant. Movement East/West changes the MC and as the Ascendant depends on the MC position, that too will also change.

An 'Inconjunct' is a rather vague term. Traditionally two angles were given this term - 30 degrees and 150 degrees and used to be described as 'non-beholding'. Following Kepler, From the Seventeenth Century onwards some Astrologers began to make use of, what are today called, minor aspects. And these two went into that batch. This is perhaps not the place to digress to far - but some of these angles meet the criterion of an 'antiscion' which is not an aspect but an important and traditionally long used relationship between two planets.

Modern Astrologers tend to place quite a lot of weight on the 150 degree aspect and distinguish it as a 'quincunx' seeing it as something of a stressfull aspect that sort of 'buzzes' away in the background but is not something you can easily put your finger on (which fits the traditional view of not being seen, or 'non-beholding). The 30 degree aspect or semi-sextile doesn't get as much attention.

Personally, I only use the 'inconjunct' angles when they do meet the criterion of an antiscion, such as Gemini/Cancer, Scorpio/Aries (in both cases ruled by Mars) Aries/Virgo or Sagittarius/Capricorn and antiscions are NOT stressful at all.

So how you approach the angle very much depends on your approach to Astrology. I would guess that your reader was giving a modern interpretation so the inconjuct would be seen as 'stressful' at a low but persistant level.

If she's referring to your natal chart, rather than a progressed one, your eighth ruler, Jupiter is in a quincunx with the South Node and semi-sextile to the North Node. Many Astrologers see the Nodal axis as in some way being linked to past lives, or spiritual development, so that is probably where she's getting the 'psychic' connection.

I totally agree with Dave that progressed charts should not be relocated. A relocation flies in the face of what really happened. If you do a progressed for your husband then you use his Greek birth chart as he was in Greece for more than the first 14 or 15 weeks of life that encompass his entire life via progressions.

Hope that helps a bit - if you've got more specific questions to ask then get back to us.

 

[franniee]

Hope that helps a bit - if you've got more specific questions to ask then get back to us.

I literally laughed out loud! I have a million!

Thank you Minderwiz!!!

So he is a Sag rising. hmmmmmm that is very interesting. Now I need to figure out why he isn't more fiery!

Yes the whole inconjunct thing was new to me - she said mine was well aspected and she has always seen that in someone with reading gifts. I do believe she mentioned a node but it was done very quickly and I didn't get it all.

So ...... if I were to read my chart to figure out what is on the horizon for me, I would open my natal chart and cast it with transits?

I am confused a bit because she kept referring to my moon in the 4th house of home..... and that it will stay there for a awhile.... my natal moon is in my 6th house and she can't be speaking of the transiting moon because it moves too quickly so I guess this was a progressed moon? I am not trying to challenge what she did I just want to understand..... but if the consensus is that I should just rely on my natal chart then so be it.

 

[Minderwiz]

Well Firstly Jupiter isn't a fiery planet - it's essential nature is sanguine - Airy in modern Astrology and Sagittarius is an Autumnal sign and a common (mutable) sign, so is the least 'fiery'. So don't expect the fieriness of Aries. or even Leo.

Even more important the Ascendant whilst important is not the only determinant of Temperament - Sun and Moon and their rulers and signs are also important - in his case it's a November birth, which is Autumnal and injects some Melancholy into the Temperament and the Moon is in it's last quarter and injects some Phlegm into Temperament. These don't change with relocation, the birth is still Autumnal and the Moon phase is still fourth quarter. The Sun is still ruled by Jupiter and the Moon is still ruled by Venus - only the Ascendant will change, in this case weakening the fieriness by removing Mars and replacing it with the airiness of Jupiter.

As I didn't hear her reading either I can't comment any further on what she meant or didn't mean - it does look as though she had ideas related to the Nodes but what they were I can't say.

If you're looking for a way of reading the future there are many. Both Dave and I would use Solar Return charts, I would also consider Primary Directions and Profections. Dave adjusts his Solar Return charts for precession and has a very well developed approach of 'progressing' his Solar return chart on a day by day basis, which yields very good results. Many Astrologers use Secondary Progressions (based on a day for a year). Transits in all approaches are really the bottom of the pile - the last thing you look at and the least globally important.

I've not by any means been comprehensive there, there are many more techniques used for predictions. It's one of the most difficult areas of Astrolgy, not because the techniques are inherently difficult but because there are so many of them and at different levels of analysis that setting up a systematic, coherent and internally valid approach is not easy. I struggled with this for quite a long time.

You specifically mentioned and showed interest in progressions. The most frequent approach is to use secondary progressions based on a day for a year. Now you don't actually say or presumably know whether this was the method she actually used. Basically this approach says that the first year of your life can be read from the chart for the first day (which is of course your natal chart). Detailed readings for other years are from the relevant day of your life. So if you want to make predictions for your 25th year (i'e' from your 24th birthday to your 25th birthday) you take the chart for the 25th day of life (you count your day of birth as 1) and cast a chart for the birth time. The location is almost certainly the same but even it has change there are some who would argue that changing the location is a mistake - and I don't disagree with that).

Now a progressed chart can be advanced at a predetermined rate to allow any day in that 25th year to be identified and examined. In your case a secondary progressed chart for today shows the Moon in Leo in the second House. Now the Moon's position by sign looks right to me, given that it completes a return to it's natal position every 28 days approximately. (i.e. your progressed Moon will be back at it's natal position around age 28, 56, 84, etc).

The rate at which MC and ASC change is more debatable and there are a number of ways of working out their progression rate and that Astrologers have argued, argue and will continue to argue the merits of these is a bit or an understatement LOL. However again I can't get one to produce a fourth House Moon in the several attempts I've made but perhaps a night of chart casting might hit on her method

However a transit chart for the day and time of the reading may have had the Moon in the fourth House. What methods she was using should have been explained at the time and she should have given you both the charts and a written report so that you can review her reading at a later time. It's unreasonable to expect your to be able to take it all in and remember it.

OK Next set of questions ;-)

 

[franniee]

Well Firstly Jupiter isn't a fiery planet - it's essential nature is sanguine - Airy in modern Astrology and Sagittarius is an Autumnal sign and a common (mutable) sign, so is the least 'fiery'. So don't expect the fieriness of Aries. or even Leo.

Even more important the Ascendant whilst important is not the only determinant of Temperament - Sun and Moon and their rulers and signs are also important - in his case it's a November birth, which is Autumnal and injects some Melancholy into the Temperament and the Moon is in it's last quarter and injects some Phlegm into Temperament. These don't change with relocation, the birth is still Autumnal and the Moon phase is still fourth quarter. The Sun is still ruled by Jupiter and the Moon is still ruled by Venus - only the Ascendant will change, in this case weakening the fieriness by removing Mars and replacing it with the airiness of Jupiter.

Thank you. I guess it would be the least fiery. I was still stuck on Aries I guess. I never really think of Jupiter as Airy but I can totally see that.

If you're looking for a way of reading the future there are many. Both Dave and I would use Solar Return charts, I would also consider Primary Directions and Profections. Dave adjusts his Solar Return charts for precession and has a very well developed approach of 'progressing' his Solar return chart on a day by day basis, which yields very good results. Many Astrologers use Secondary Progressions (based on a day for a year). Transits in all approaches are really the bottom of the pile - the last thing you look at and the least globally important.

I've not by any means been comprehensive there, there are many more techniques used for predictions. It's one of the most difficult areas of Astrology, not because the techniques are inherently difficult but because there are so many of them and at different levels of analysis that setting up a systematic, coherent and internally valid approach is not easy. I struggled with this for quite a long time.

I found the solar return area of my program and clicked it on for me. So I am reading my natal planets aspects with my solar return placements. Interesting. Thank you for telling me about this. I saw the profections and primary directions etc..... there are so many options that I have no idea about.

Is it possible for you guys to do a thread on how you do predictions? or point me in the direction of a thread or book or anything on it? I would like to understand this.

You specifically mentioned and showed interest in progressions. The most frequent approach is to use secondary progressions based on a day for a year. Now you don't actually say or presumably know whether this was the method she actually used. Basically this approach says that the first year of your life can be read from the chart for the first day (which is of course your natal chart). Detailed readings for other years are from the relevant day of your life. So if you want to make predictions for your 25th year (i'e' from your 24th birthday to your 25th birthday) you take the chart for the 25th day of life (you count your day of birth as 1) and cast a chart for the birth time. The location is almost certainly the same but even it has change there are some who would argue that changing the location is a mistake - and I don't disagree with that).

Now a progressed chart can be advanced at a predetermined rate to allow any day in that 25th year to be identified and examined. In your case a secondary progressed chart for today shows the Moon in Leo in the second House. Now the Moon's position by sign looks right to me, given that it completes a return to it's natal position every 28 days approximately. (i.e. your progressed Moon will be back at it's natal position around age 28, 56, 84, etc).

The rate at which MC and ASC change is more debatable and there are a number of ways of working out their progression rate and that Astrologers have argued, argue and will continue to argue the merits of these is a bit or an understatement LOL. However again I can't get one to produce a fourth House Moon in the several attempts I've made but perhaps a night of chart casting might hit on her method

However a transit chart for the day and time of the reading may have had the Moon in the fourth House. What methods she was using should have been explained at the time and she should have given you both the charts and a written report so that you can review her reading at a later time. It's unreasonable to expect your to be able to take it all in and remember it.

OK Next set of questions ;-)

I only mentioned the progressed chart because I thought she did it that way and she was my reference point. This is just to the best of my recollection....

I just called her and left a message asking for the charts.....we'll see - there is something about her that bothers me which is why I am asking you guys.

Hey don't forget my Pluto is somewhat near my Sun (if you give it leeway) so you know I will be a dog with a bone!

 

[Minderwiz]

Well both Dave and myself have done several threads or parts of threads using predictive techniques, sometimes we've looked at the same individual but used different techniques so that there's a combined approach.

However if Dave's agreeable we could try and do a 'sticky' which might help people progress. As you now realised there are several major approaches, nearly all of which have significant variants and many of which can also be relocated or use correction for precession. That gives an awfully large number of alternatives and would present a massive thread if done in detail.

It might be better to do a short guide to the main alternatives with some comments showing the variations and some authors/books as an addendum.

You might also do searches for:

Solar Returns
Secondary Progressions
Profections
Primary Directions
Transits

My thread on Traditional Approaches looks at how some of these can be used and Dave has done several threads on his techniques related to Precession corrected Solar Returns, which really ought to be read by anyone wanting to develop their Astrological knowledge. He's also written a book on the techniques.

Oh, as I don't take Pluto seriously, it holds no terrors for me LOL. Others of course disagree

 

[dadsnook2000]

For franniee

I would suggest you get a very good (thick) book by a respected author on how to do prediction. My first book that covered many of those methods was by Margaret Hone --- probably printed in the 1960's or so. A more recent book is by Celeste Teal, Predicting Events with Astrology which compares several popular methods. There are several books covering Solar Returns, one is by Lynn Bell called Cycles of Light.

These are all of the standard approaches, none of which I use. My book will be out in early 2011. All in all, we could illustrate any of these methods easily, with lots of time and posting, but it would be more productive for you to purchase some books and devote several weeks to study and charts to find the methods that work for you. Dave