RWS & Thoth

[victoria.star]

I recently read a bit in Beyond Fear, the Toltec Teachings of Don Miguel Ruiz by Mary Carroll Nelson.
According to Nelson, Ruiz characterized Tarot as the RWS by Pamela Coleman Smith as coming from a place of love.
Oppositely, he characterized the Crowley Thoth as coming from a place of fear.

Any opinions or ideas on this? I am fairly unfamiliar with Thoth decks and was just interested in what you might think regarding this.

Thanks!

 

[nisaba]

Oppositely, he characterized the Crowley Thoth as coming from a place of fear.

Any opinions or ideas on this?

No. Just lots of laughter.

Say what you like about Crowley in his personal, political and sometimes mystical life, this deck is by far the finest work he ever did, and presents as lucid, intelligent and full of light and optimism.

Advice: take each deck on itself, not on its creator's reputation (which Crowley *did* like to inflate the sinister side of in order to increase his fame).

 

[Lillie]

I recently read a bit in Beyond Fear, the Toltec Teachings of Don Miguel Ruiz by Mary Carroll Nelson.
According to Nelson, Ruiz characterized Tarot as the RWS by Pamela Coleman Smith as coming from a place of love.
Oppositely, he characterized the Crowley Thoth as coming from a place of fear.

Any opinions or ideas on this? I am fairly unfamiliar with Thoth decks and was just interested in what you might think regarding this.

Thanks!

Well, they both come from the Golden Dawn, ultimately.

Loads of people don't like Crowley, for lots of reasons.
Then they say stuff like this.

I would suggest making up your own mind about both decks.

 

[Grigori]

haha that's laughably silly I think.

You could argue that RWS being Waite's version of a Christian deck is based on puritannical fear of god and eternal punishment by the Devil. Certainly Waite likes to waffle about such things, and the dangers of it all, though people are more comfortable with that so may find the RWS more comfortable.

Crowley's deck by contrast is a pictorial illustration of the world seen through the eyes of Thelema. "Love is the Law, Love under Will", "Come forth, o children, under the stars, & take your fill of love!" Loving the self and others in recognition of your/their own innate godhood. That's a bit threatening for people though, so maybe some react in fear.

Though IMO neither deck is really about love or fear.

 

[victoria.star]

Thanks for your replies. I was really just wondering as I hadn't ever heard or read anything like that before.

 

[Abrac]

For the RWS I think it depends on whether you're talking about Waite or Colman Smith. I believe for Waite the whole creation of a tarot pack was an exercise in self-aggrandizement. If a dose of love was injected into it it came from Colman Smith.

As for the Crowley Thoth, I think it does come from a place of fear. That's just my opinion.

 

[BlueBlulle]

I've never heard of this, but after thinking I would categorize thus:

Waite's comes from the High Horse of Pontification, with Smith softening the leaden words. I feel a lot of "Respect Ma Authoritee" from Waite's Pictorial Key. Could just be the hundred odd years between his English and mine. I can work with it, it just has quite the formal "voice". I see dedication in the deck from both Waite and Smith, but only love for the art from Smith.

Crowley's comes from the "I'm going to tell you straight" table. Don't ask it a question unless you truly want the answer. Harris did a wonderful job translating emotion into color and shape. I would compare the Thoth to the blades of Kali. If you are willing to face the truth, no matter how ugly or painful, then you have nothing to fear. (From the deck or Kali's blades!) Depending on the card, there is fear and pride and joy and brooding and ecstasy and realism and pragmatism and.... etc. But an overall aspect of fear? No.

Standard disclaimer applies: I am not a tarot|religion|time period|Golden Dawn scholar, and all opinions expressed are just that opinions.

 

[Myrrha]

As for the Crowley Thoth, I think it does come from a place of fear. That's just my opinion.

I'd be interested in hearing more about this. Personally I find that Crowley's meanings are a bit more down to earth and less idealized than Waite's and lately I've been preferring Waite's. But I hadn't really picked up on fear in the Thoth deck. Fear of what? Or do you mean that the intensity of the deck is used by some readers to subtly intimidate seekers?

Anyway, I'm curious to know what you mean by that, even if you want to direct me to some other post if you've posted about this before.

 

[Abrac]

I don't have anything to add. That's just my opinion; others are free to think what they like.

 

[Myrrha]

Well, OK. It is just that it is an interesting opinion but left me curious for something more specific.