kapoore said:
Hi Huck,
First of all, I don't know as much as you do about the actual card history. I thought there was more uncertainty about the early cards. You can tell me where I am wrong. 1. "Authentic Tarot" was one of many allegorical games in the early 15th century. Some allegorical games featured warriors, others classical Gods, and some Biblical themes. However, these other games were not actually considered "AuthenticTarot", but "Tarot like." 2. The earliest actual date for a Tarot (or Triumphi pack) was in 1442 at the House of d'Este. 3. Other Triumph packs that were once thought to be much earlier were in fact found to be later, like Charles V deck (not sure about V there) 4. The number of cards in the "Tarot alikes" varied, but no one has proven that "authentic Tarot" changed its numbers. Here I am drawing on Robert O'Neill who has written this somewhere. Ronald Decker, who is a respected Tarot historian, also thinks that the Marseille deck is the original deck--stable number of cards.
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But do you have any samples of "Father Time" "Chronos" "Saturn" that are from the 15th Century. I went online and nothing popped up, then I went through my books and couldn't find it either. Frankly, I always thought the Hermit was Saturn or Father Time as well; but now I am changing my mind. A reference on this would help. Thanks..
The books of Stuart Kaplan, Tarot Encyclopedia I and II, offer generally a good overview ... only few Trionfi cards are not there.
A composite picture (not very illustrative) is given by Bob O'Neill.
http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/library/boneill/hermit
As you see, there are 5 pictures:
Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo-Tarocchi, probably ca. 1452, handpainted
http://trionfi.com/m/d0yyyy.php?decknr=2046
Charles VI Tarocchi, 1463 (assumption), generally 1450 - 1470, handpainted
Castle Ursino fragment (hermit identical to Charles VI, not at Bob O'Neill's selection
http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/charlesvi/
3 other early woodcut decks exist, one is here
http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/sheets/
These are the extant Italian hermit cards. French Hermit cards start with Catelin Godefrey 1557, and since then the hour glass looks like a lantern. There had been many Petrarca Trionfi in 15th century, but not too many are in the web.
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... I don't know, what you understand with "Authentic Tarot"
Early Tarot History in 15th consists of written documemts and real early playing cards ... the extant documents inform us, that some of the playing cards had the name "Trionfi" cards. And the terminus "Tarot" is missing in them ... first appearance 1505 in France and in Ferrara at nearly the same time.
So Tarot history reseachers came up with the opinion, that "Trionfi" should be translated in 15th century with "Tarot" and from their card findings they assumed, that the "authentical Tarot" was somehow in existence in ca. 1450. So, whenever "Trionfi" appeared in documents, they assumed, that they saw the note of an "authentical Tarot deck" and whenever they saw a remaining Tarot similar card, they saw the rest of a deck with 22 special cards and 56 small arcana around it.
The documents or reports of them are here:
http://trionfi.com/0/e/00/
The theory of a complete Tarot ca. 1450 has some holes ... The "authentic Tarot" was only a somehow possible fiction. There are other ways to interprete the documents. For instance there is no evidence, that the original structure of the deck was 22+4x14. The structure 5x14 is possible and also the structure 5x16. And the name "Trionfi" could be used for decks with various motifs.
For your proud statement:
5. Finally, I can understand that you are passionate about there not being originally 22 Trump cards. We can all hold strong opinions, otherwise we wouldn't be putting time and energy into this research. Still, I think there is room to speculate that "Authentic Tarot" is very precise in terms of number symbolism.
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... I'm not sure, if you know really what you're saying ... "Authentic" usually signifies "the oldest" in development and this would be in matters of Trionfi deck something like the Michelino deck. How will you with your numerology, which assumes to be "very precise in terms of number symbolism", operate with a Jupiter as the highest card and Amor as the lowest?
http://trionfi.com/0/b/
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undenyable a Trionfi deck ... well, maybe you find the "authentic" Tarot deck in the time, when the word "Tarot" really was used ... maybe after 1505.
And the many existent different numerologies in Tarot really need more than a few explaning words ...