The Four Worlds/The Four Suits - the Order

[GnosticTarotCards]

GD versions of the Tree of Life are BLATENTLY inaccurate! I don't care either way. If you just want to Free Associate by all means the Tarot can be a great Oracle. However If you want to use Tarot and Kabbalah, then your going to need a reason to practice Kabbalah and ask yourself hard questions. I don't advocate reading GD material because its the most popular. You can drink Pepsi or Coca Cola because you see it every minute on TV, but that doesn't mean its good to do or beneficial.

The GD system has some really good things in it. If you use the right tree you will either get into Faustian Pact magic or Agrippian work which is where Mathers etc. received their "lectures and knowledge" . Its important to ask WHY not just accept things blindly.

All through GD literature they talk about Blinds this, and Blinds that. The reason why is because (I think) The fundemental flaw in the system , its derived from French Masonic tradition that was denied to them and then synthesized into a new system called Golden Dawn. The problem is that the French mage Eliphas Levi DENIED the "adepts" of the GOlden dawn entry... why if they were so advanced. Its because of this that I think they use the word blind, sort of a Freudian Slip BLIND BLIND BLIND! How can the Blind lead the Blind??

 

[ravenest]

Like I said; some accept change, some don’t. Some accept other religions ... as one big family (Baha'i Faith) others think that people with a different religion are getting dangerously close to the devil. (or making a pact with him )

It’s a matter for the individual to decide (usually based on their upbringing and conditioning).

I drank 6 cans of ice cold coke-a-cola each at 20 mins apart, waited 30 mins, drank a can of liquefied asparagus and passed a load of finely dissolved kidney stones the day before I was booked in to have them manually removed via a 'device' being inserted up the urethra and through the bladder.

Also ... let’s not forget there are TWO versions of Faust

Regardless ... yes, the system IS 'elegant'. I like some of GTC's attributions ... but some others ? ... Sun / Pisces ???? - but maybe that’s MY upbringing and conditioning ?

The issue is ... choose a system first ... if kabbalistic interest is due to a particular tarot deck, go with the system in that deck.

Otherwise eventually one gets to the point where , "Your deck is bad or has something wrong with it, while mine is superior because ... "

Now that is a fun game and can lead to education or even a paradigm shift, but it is a maze and muddle for someone just starting out ... and I would hate to put someone off just starting out because there is so much potential worth in these systems.

And ... think about it for a bit ... there are different types of systems because ... ... ...

there are different types of people.

 

[GnosticTarotCards]

Sun isn't Pisces. Sun is the Fool that the entire show revolves around. The un-numbered card not Aleph. The justification for Aleph = 0 is in the Zohar , where YHVH says that since Aleph is so humble that the Aleph is the first and not the Bet. Its the primary justification for the system. However either Aleph is first or so humble it lets Bet be first.. Get it??

The Sun is not Pisces the sun is the center of the entire Drama of Tarrochi. If that is understood then we can look how astrologically the tarot can really knock us out.. especially when we get into Alchemy and Ladder of Lights or Dignities.

In GNOSIS

Tim

 

[GnosticTarotCards]

by the way, I only aim to help those interested in esotericism. This is a forum for Tarot - Kabbalah and Hebrew Letters.. you know I got to speak about that!

Tim

 

[treedog]

following the path...

Thanks everyone! I like this discussion and this forum beacuse, once again, there is no one rule book nor one ruler, but there are fellow travellers, some of whom have been on the road a little longer. So I'll go along as I seem to be directed, knowing that: 1) I have a village with me and can ask for help anytime, and 2) as always, I get to follow my heart, make mistakes, and have fun. I call it god godding into the next moment.

And now that I'm fully whelmed, I think I'll go listen to the cards.

treedog.

 

[Richard]

I am not aware of extensive use of the word 'blind' in Golden Dawn documents.

It is often used derisively (and unjustifiably) by detractors of A. E. Waite. As to whether it applies to Levi's Hebrew letter attributions of the Major Arcana, P. F. Case was convinced that Levi knew better than to consider the twenty-two Hebrew letters to be equivalent to the numerals 1 through 22, and I agree. Besides, for no apparent reason other than to have the World at the end of the Trump sequence, Levi supposedly regarded the Fool as card number 21. However, speculation about Levi really has nothing to do with the alleged use of the word 'blind' by the GD.

In defense of the GD: I am not a card-carrying member of any Thelemic or GD organization, nor do I intend to be in the future. Also, I do not think that the documents of the fin de siecle magical movements are in any way analogous to ex cathedra Papal pronouncements, i.e., infallible. At the same time, I am familiar enough with the GD system to feel strongly that it is essentially internally consistent and definitely not rubbish. This is in view of the fact that it is not easy for a skeptic such as myself to be persuaded of the validity of any metaphysical or psychological speculation.

 

[Richard]

......Also ... let’s not forget there are TWO versions of Faust ......

As one who shares with Crowley the feeling that Christians know more about my future than is altogether pleasant, I tend to prefer Goethe's version over Marlowe's.

 

[GnosticTarotCards]

It was a fact that Eliphas Levi was a member of the High Degree French Tradition. The attributions of Kabalah and Tarot was a way of giving a secret initiatic cirriculum to those who were looking for it. The albegensian paper company was highly interested in making the "heretical" documents that were stamped out with the Inquisitions available. Particularly the ones of the Cathari! Im not here to snub any of those that believe that AE Waite was really a masterful commentator and translator, but its a fact that Crowley uses the word "blind" in Dogma and Rituals of Eliphas Levi , specifically when Levi gives foundational information to the attributions and correct systemization of the Tarot.

Why???

Because AE Waite, Woodford, and Mathers were DENIED access to French Masonic traditons and ultra masonic rites.. ( since this is tarot not kabbalah , and kabbalah has nothing to do with any secret society I'd suggest to turn the name of this thread to "Golden Dawn Tree of Life VS. Other Traditions" )

Tarot is infact the "flashcards of the mysteries" watch my videos and read the sefer yetzeriah and I assure you the depths will be opened.

In GNOSIS

Tim

 

[Richard]

Let me try to paraphrase.

Crowley uses the word 'blind' in Dogma and Rituals of Eliphas Levi BECAUSE Waite, Woodward, and Mathers were denied access to French Masonic traditons and ultra masonic rites.

There surely seems to be an enormous leap there between the antecedent and consequent, or is it my imagination?

Also, how does Crowley's use of the word 'blind' imply that GDers overuse that term?

It's perfectly alright to be a true believer in theories regarding high degree French Freemasonry and the like, but (pssst, don't tell anybody, but...) it shows. It really does. And that's okay.

[size=+2]שלום[/size]

 

[Zephyros]

Getting back to the thread, however, how can one tell if a Tree is innacurate or not? I am a beginner myself in these matters, and I favor the GD pepsi-cola ToL because of its seeming consistency and perhaps logical beauty, which makes it all that easier to learn.

But whether one goes by Levi or the GD, I'm guessing only those who have reached such degrees as to actually exit the Tree could actually see it from the outside. By virtue of the fact that we are all writing on the forum and (more or less) alive, I'm guessing nobody here has achieved such a thing. How would one even argue such a point if not for consistency? Even then it is a highly synthetic diagram detailing natural phenomena all occurring simultaneously.

Ultimately, as Dion Fortune said in a quote I favor highly, that "Qabalah is not a body of knowledge, but a method of thinking" or something to that effect.