The Moon Nodes

[Minderwiz]

Tor,

You mentioned 'esoteric astrology' earlier on. Is your course in esoteric astrology and can you say a little about it. I think that is where Ronia and to some extent myself are having some difficulty following your points. At least if we've got some reference point, such as the course website,'we can follow your arguments.

 

[Tor]

I'm so sorry for confusing you. Actuallly I feel a bit confused myself.

I wanted just a standard astrology school - and they were marketing it as that - but the teacher seems much more focused on so-called 'esoteric astrology'.

It seems to be based on the author Alice Bailey and her work.

I can relate to a lot of it, since esoteric means 'on the inside' and seems to be more focused on the soul than outer, classic astrology things. For me it has been a groundbreaking class, because when I hear (mp3-lessons) that Mercury is the esoteric ruler of Aries (and not just Mars), I understand more of my life path since I have Aries rising. It makes Aries more thinking than full of action. They also talk about hierarchical ruler, and in Aries that is Uranus. They say Uranus has (among other things) to do with occultism, and suddenly my voices in my head got a more meaningful purpose.

This is just some examples of the teachings and how I can relate to them.

But when Ronia seemed so confused, I became confused too. The reason is that we don't learn much classic astrology at all. I've heard two-three lessons about The Sun, and the teacher hasn't mentioned the 'father connection' at all. That makes me a bit suspicious about the whole school.

Alan Oken is also an author that the classes are based on, and I hope his book about 'Complete astrology' (that I will have soon) will focus more on the classic astrology.

The lessons are also full of chakra-talk, and I find that a bit far out. I don't like to be too 'new agy'.

I hope that it's just the mp3-lessons that are like this, but that the booklist for the school contains much more classic astrology.

Again - I'm sorry for creating confusion here. I know The Moon are related to emotions, but with esoteric astrology one adds more qualities to it. I hope I can combine those two.

 

[Ronia]

Well, it seems to me more like a mish-mash of astrology mixed with Eastern religion than anything else. If it suits your needs, fine, but I'm wary towards all these mixtures they produce these days and I've seen many people talking about chakras and karma while having absolutely no idea of the whole Eastern panteon and religion, and what exactly these terms mean, in depth. Because if one wants to teach such a thing, s/he must know it in depth. Flying to Tibet and India is not enough. One must feel this to be able to understand it. What I read in your response is something that sounds "a bit of this and a bit of that". All planets relate to many things, may be Uranus relates to occultism too but if I have to choose a planet to relate to occultism at all, it would be Pluto as a ruler of the 8th house where magic and such things live. Then in anyone's natal I'd look for the ruler of their own 8th house and its condition. If I, like Minderwiz, don't use the outers and stick to traditional astrology, I somehow feel more inclined to refer to the Moon as the night ruler of the sky, or even Mars as a source of often aggressive influence, and so on... depending on what we understand by "occultism", if it's magic as an action or studying, or wisdom of the past, etc.

 

[Minderwiz]

Alan Oken has written a good standard textbook, called Alan Oken's Complete Astrology and it's certainly worth a read. I know he is into esoteric astrology but that book is a good general introduction.

My feeling is thrat your course has put the cart before the horse. You need a good grounding in the basics of Astrology before you begin to venture into fairly narrow specialist areas. That is not to say that you will not fin it interesting and useful but you will find it difficult to understand more mainstream texts, and therefore miss out on ideas which also might be interesting.

As you might have further issues, don't be shy to post

 

[Tor]

Just to clarify some things:

I know the basics of astrology and it's therefore natural to develop my knowledge. That's why 'esoteric astrology' is of interest.

Alan Oken writes in his book 'Complete astrology':

(quote)
'He must not become confined by the limits of astrology thought, but rather, once he has understood the principles of the astrological system, he should then continue to the next stage which is waiting for him.'
(end of quote)

When it comes to Uranus being the planet for occultism. Alan Oken writes:

(quote)
'And so we study astrology. We do so, so that we may be led to an objective understanding of what constitutes the human race. The principles of astrology transcend the notions of personal prejudices, of racial superiority, of the battle between good and evil. The devoted student will have the opportunity to rise above the regressive beliefs and become uplifted by the inner light of human brotherhood. This is one reason why we say that astrology falls under the rulership of Aquarius, for this is the sign of humanitariaism, of Man perfected through his understaning of the human condition.'
(end of quote)

Aquarius is ruled by Uranus.

Occultism means 'knowledge of the hidden'.

It was nothing wrong with my ideas, but I understand they can be confusing for a beginner or others who haven't studied astrology for so many years as I have.

I shall admit that my post was made unclear, but I suffer from too much Fire and intuition in my horoscope, and I lack Air - so I really need to get out of the intuitive mode to clarify what I mean.

Hope this post better clarified the point that I may have a point, though it was confusing at a first glance

 

[Ronia]

With all my respect to Mr. Oken, Pluto (for those using the outers) is the planet which rules the hidden, the unknown, all kinds of knowledge traditionally kept secret from the masses (and for a good reason), the masses themselves and all instruments to rule them, and magic and occultism in that basket. I haven't written astrological books, of course, but I don't consider Uranus part of any hidden knowledge nor do I see Aquarius as the carrier of such info, IMHO. But I also don't consider astrology, as it is, part of occultism as I know the latter and I know it well, family tradition. Occultism and occultic practices imply "transformation" and "manipulation". This is Pluto. Astrology to me is much more science than occult practice where other forces come into play and faith plays a major role, and the work with energy in and out of us is essential. Astrology is about the stars and the planets and they are visible. They are part of what can be seen, of nature as it is. People even walked on the Moon.

And what about those who stick to traditional astrology where Uranus doesn't play? Are they left without the knowledge of occultism?

P.S. You never know for how long people have studied astrology and who is a beginner and who is not. By the way, I think many famous astrologers have admitted that with astrology one is always a student

 

[Minderwiz]

Oken does see Uranus as ruling intuition and the sixth sense, (I see the Moon as intuition, it's an animal instinct, as is the sixth sense). Oken sees Uranus and the other outers as a 'higher octave' planet. In the case of Uranus, the higher octave is of Mercury (the traditional ruler of Astrology).

The higher octave view is actually widely held by those who search for meaning for the outers, though to be honest I can't really see sense in the argument, unless you accept Alan Leo's contention that only the higher developed souls are capable of manifesting the positive side of the outers. The problem of course is who defines what a 'developed soul' is, and can they be trusted, like Plato's 'Men of Gold' to always act in humanity's interest. I suppose it could be argued that they must by definition but then we are no wiser and it's always difficult to actually pin this down. I think it is more useful to say that we are all flawed humans but some of us manage our flaws better than others.

Aquarius is indeed a 'humane' sign but it is not the only humane sign, Gemini, Libra and Leo (because of its link to kings and rulers) are also seen as humane. As Mercury rules Gemini, it qualifies for rulership of Astrology under Oken's definition. All humane signs are 'manly', courteous and have overtones of seeking to understand humanity's condition.

I have absolutely no doubt that in his esoteric beliefs, Oken not only means well but is trying to promote a more humane society and to seek ways of spiritually 'improving himself'. and I'm sure he uses the word 'occultism' in a different sense than the traditional usage, that Ronia or I would recognise.

When we move on to the teachings of Alice Bailey, we find a different set of sign rulerships advanced (Uranus there rules Libra and Jupiter rules Aquarius) and also the 'seven rays'. Again the aim is to 'contact' our 'higher' self. I've not really seen any evidence that these 'rays' are a more useful approach than the traditional or even the modern approach to Astrology but I see no problem with anyone wishing to explore the ideas, concepts and beliefs involved, as compared to any other area of Astrology. Learning and exploring is always to be commended.

 

[Tor]

The comfort here must be that even scientists that bases their knowledge on facts, still argue about what's right or wrong. So how can an astrologer claim he is right?

 

[Minderwiz]

Yes

As you progress in your course it would be good if you would post some of the things you learn. We don't have any esoteric Astrologers at the moment, and we do get quite a few questions on Karma and other esoteric themes.

However it would help if you can attribute your sources, rather than it seem wholly your own ideas, so that other members can see that there is a school of thought out there. You might also find it useful for sorting things out in your mind.

 

[earths]

i studied karmic astrology for long, have many books from schulman and watchovsky on the matter,

find this post confusing though

do not see connection between sun-moon and north/south nodes that easily unless you elaborate it for a case study. I often hear south node pertains to saturn and north node jupiter, Period.