The unwashed general public & the book of Thoth

[Tanga]

gulp ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYZoxY3sawE

Thankyou.
The bit that really made me laugh was the title of the following youtube:
"Darth Vader goes to anger management". (just the title - didn't actually watch it).

 

[ravenest]

I think that testing a potential canditate by not answering their messages is a bit lame. It may have been good practice back when these orders were actually secret and had to operate underground, but if the orders truly are more open these days, it just feels silly to me.

Back when I was practicing martial arts, our school welcomed everyone with open arms. The teachers knew there was no point in trying to test new student's mettle or dedication because the truth is in the pudding, so to speak.

And here's the thing, it's what we called "beginner's paradox". You don't know if a school or teacher is the right one for you unless you try it first. The initial silence doesn't help with this in any way.

I agree with that mostly ... then again there are those mass of letters that are answered and no response back .... the arrangements made and no show up ... that is really annoying and time wasting exercise on the groups part . Or the continued delay or postponement ( a group of people bend over backwards to make it happen within the applicants framework and the applicant keep cancelling because of important issues ... to them ..... and then never show up

 

[ravenest]

Wow, some lovely though provoking replies from everyone.



Cards on the table here. I also teach what I do for a living. It even involves grades It fascinates me why some people can achieve great things and other drop out at some stage. With the potential drop outs I always see them falter first and at that point they are waving a massive flag "help- the normal system isn't working for me" to the teaching methods I'm using. This is when as a teacher I have to say, ok because the end game is more important than structured logical progression, I'm going to have to do things out of order because this is the right order for them, even if I know that it's going to complicate things. But as a teacher sometimes you have to trust what the pupil knows instinctively.

I have worked as a teacher , year 9 and 10 . I agree as far as that type of teaching goes. I also taught some of the same kids martial Arts for sports, and there it had to be different. Magic and /or initiation is different again. Some areas are similar and some are not.

I found with potential indicated dropouts, it wasnt a matter of 'order; but the teaching method applied ; we all have different 'best methods for learning' , it is up to the teacher to apply the right one to the student. In my case, teaching at a Steiner School, that was essential, also to be able to detect what the ' daily lesson ' was and to teach that as the base to whatever one was doing that day , in all fields; art, maths, sport, down the river, etc . In that environment, it was possible ( that is, small classes, good environment, knew a lot of the kids previously and personally, and their parents ) .

Putting my own cards down here, I was a trained initiator, and held a high position in an order (if you couldnt already tell ) , I was also both a school teacher for a while and a martial arts teacher. So I speak from my experience, they are all different fields.

Some people metaphorically can use nunchucks before they can walk

Ummmm ... you migh have to explain the metaphorical use of nunchuks to me

I think I know what you mean ... I addressed that earlier (if I am right in what you mean ) re, some people finding a 'higher' level easy and accomplished in their life. It might be due to past experience or their natural makeup. Then there is what they bring to the group. Some times yoga might be a recommended practice ... imagine if a qualified yoga teacher wants to join the group ... peoples skills can build group assets, regardless of their 'position' .

Their potential end game might be better/worse than what I think their end game was going to be, but if you don't allow people full expression in the process, you'll always get clones.

Yes- I think 'testing' potential candidates is not only lame but a complete waste of their time. They might not have that long to live to wait a few months/years. 'Life is precious' and 'no time like the present'. I teach elderly people too and although they joke about it, you can see when they say "I want to learn this today" with earnestness that they have begun prioritizing things, so rigid teaching orders have to go out of the window. Any Order/organisation which doesn't realize this concept of time criticality isn't an order worth joining in my humble opinion because they just don't get one of the most important concepts in life. (Unless they have no spaces in which an immediate no and a suggestion of where else to go would be polite and decent. )

I had a such an elderly gentleman apply. He vocalised how he was worried he might not have long. So he made a point of coming on time and actually turning up to the first social meeting, and he did all the preliminaries very well, I was impressed. he became a great member too, dedicated. He voiced once that he had a little difficulty paying his dues as he was a pensioner and I asked HQ - they immediately gave him an exemption and life membership. He went through the 3 degrees, and that was enough for him. But it cant be rushed beyond an extent. Things take time to bed in.

I know someone who was 'rushed through' ... against the rules ... the said the after effects were intense, confusing , jumbled and unsettling. Its a bit like, what is happening to children nowadays, they are not getting enough time to settle into various stages before the next one is heaped upon them. Said person above had to spend just as much time anyway, catching up afterwards.

You wouldnt put a kid through a year of schooling in 2 weeks would you ? If he is a genius and capable , how would you know that without testing him ( him demonstrating it - a tyope of test anyway )?

 

[Aeon418]

I agree with that mostly ... then again there are those mass of letters that are answered and no response back .... the arrangements made and no show up ... that is really annoying and time wasting exercise on the groups part . Or the continued delay or postponement ( a group of people bend over backwards to make it happen within the applicants framework and the applicant keep cancelling because of important issues ... to them ..... and then never show up

One thing that is often overlooked is that groups and orders have every right to be as picky and choosy as individuals looking for a group. Once a 'bad apple' gets in, it can be very difficult to get rid of them before they do a lot damage.

While we're on the subject of tests....

Some groups ask that new members begin the process of acquiring a small number of books for study. The catch is that they have to be actual physical books. (The magical link? )
"But they're all free on the internet!!! Why should I have to pay for books? Waaaahhhh!!!"

Those who are really interested will find the money and buy the books.

 

[thorhammer]

I know someone who was 'rushed through' ... against the rules ... the said the after effects were intense, confusing , jumbled and unsettling.

This describes my one and only experience of occult initiation. (IIRC, I was in contact with you, ravenest, at the time - you might remember.) The organisation in question was comprised mostly of people of such advanced years that they had reached a point where they were pushing really hard to get me and some other younger initiates moving quickly through the grades. The resulting sense of desperation was palpable and very unsettling.

As it turned out, my journey was mismanaged so badly - by myself as well as the so-called "mentors" in the organisation, but I had no guidance so was bound to step awry - that the after effects were, as ravenest said, confusing, frightening and intensely counterproductive. After months of nightmares, broken meditation, depression and constant confusion, I walked away from not only the organisation, but all occult studies, including Tarot. That was...four? years ago? Or so. I'm just now feeling somewhat recovered...but extremely gun-shy.

I'm working up to contacting a different organisation, now. I hope that this time it goes better.

 

[Tanga]

I agree with that mostly ... then again there are those mass of letters that are answered and no response back .... the arrangements made and no show up ... that is really annoying and time wasting exercise on the groups part . Or the continued delay or postponement ( a group of people bend over backwards to make it happen within the applicants framework and the applicant keep cancelling because of important issues ... to them ..... and then never show up

Yes. Goddess Forbid!
And I might point out - these groups are really like entering a family unit (well - they are with a coven).
So - imagine you are entertaining supplicants to enter your family - every year. Complete strangers - whom - (forgive me) heaven knows where they might have come from.
It puts quite a different emphasis on it. More energy, more attachment, more to loose emotionally if it doesn't work out and they leave. And a horrible invasion if everyone got it wrong and there's clashes. It can disrupt the rest of the "family" quite some.

Putting my own cards down here, I was a trained initiator, and held a high position in an order (if you couldn't already tell ) , I was also both a school teacher for a while and a martial arts teacher. So I speak from my experience, they are all different fields.

Yes.

I know someone who was 'rushed through' ... against the rules ... the said the after effects were intense, confusing , jumbled and unsettling. Its a bit like, what is happening to children nowadays, they are not getting enough time to settle into various stages before the next one is heaped upon them. Said person above had to spend just as much time anyway, catching up afterwards.

You cannot "rush" it. And in this particular realm - it's not like you need to get to the end so you can go and find a job, for instance. It's as much a self-exploration and inner re-building, as well as learning the jargon of the group. A "spiritual" path cannot happen "tomorrow" - it's a life-long journey, even if it means you die before you get there - wherever "there" is.
Speaking from various experience. Personally, my HP initiated me in 6 months (entry initiation). Now - I wanted to say at the time "That's too fast. Why?" - even if I have already read everything pertinent and been practising it all in some form anyway. I didn't though - as I was just delighted I had got in, in the first place. (and that he figured a shortening was possible).

And - those years of asking and talking, and meeting people - there is an invaluable and intangible "knowing" that I learned from all that. And it was a path of self-development too, as I then - read x and y. I dared to ask z if he wanted to invent with me. I dared to start my own DIY coven format, etc. And everyones path will be different.
Again - this is in the "intuitive" realm, - so I can't dissect if further for you presently.
Perhaps food for my own thought...

 

[ravenest]

From reading all the posts there seems to be a general acknowledgement of the value of a mentoring role or discussion, but the main way of getting this seem to involve joining an organisation, and regardless of the difficulties that seem inherent in gaining membership, many people are not at their best in a group setting.

Alan Moore's character suggests 'finding a magician' to develop further along the path, but this seems harder done than said, but he is clearly advocating work outside of a society.

The options seem to be: to practice alone or join an organisation with a set curriculum.

When I began this thread I meant no criticism towards either model, and that remains.

that said, there seems to be a missing middle ground where people pursuing this path can meet for face to face discussions as Barleywine mentions.

Tanga's approaching small reading groups, reads to me, as an attempt to achieve a similar thing.

I am fairly sure I would be stifled in a group of 'closet thespians' simply because that is not a medium of learning I would be comfortable with, (okay, for me it sounds like hell!)

I dont get this. The oldest form of exploring the mysteries known to us is in dramatic ritual. Even ones own magical workings is a type of dramatic ritual.

I guess it depends on the one of the first 3 questions ; What is it you are seeking ?

We can learn a lot from the armchair, eventually one has to get up and put things into practice and see if they actually work or not, and learn from that.

but that does not mean I, or any other hermetic practicioner, is any less committed or earnest in their learning.

From the thread it seems apparent some people are happy working in an organisation and really appreciate the benefits, whilst others might be put off for several reasons; elitism, the difficulties faced by some in trying to join, and secrecy around the curriculum being examples cited.

Like everything ; pros and cons ... on both approaches.

I worked alone and found my own way for years . God I was fantastic ! I was so smart and knew so much and was so awfully clever ! .... until one day, this thing got in my head to 'work solar' ( I am quiet Lunar naturally and all my proclivities had lead me further along the path of the Moon, I was, without knowing it, quiet unbalanced and very subjective ). Boy am I glad that happened . Then I went along a more ordered path that objectively showed me how to balance. Now I am a hermit again, I learnt balance and how to ride the bike, the training wheels are off now, and with an order, that is how it should be. It should really only help you to develop your trues self to your own fullest and balanced potential. Then - off you go ! - Except for those that decide to stay there to help others.

What I am wandering is, can this gap be closed?

yes, I have worked with some people in such a way. A close friend of mine for years, has a great interest and never wanted to join a group. But she was a friend of the group, she came to some 'open' stuff, celebrations. She does forays to check out other groups and people (and returns with ... 'stories' ) . She accesses my library and talks to me when she needs. She was around the other day actually and borrowed some books on tradition and ceremony of ancient Egypt, asked a few questions, took some notes, gave m,e some home grown potatoes , I checked that her new BF was behaving she said he was a good one, I said "Good ! Then I dont have to go around a smack him one then , " .

I can deal with 1 or 2 like that, but more ? Then it needs to be more organised, so I can have my own life as well , then its more like a group again.

We are no longer under the oppression of the Victorian era, nor is esotercism as taboo as once it was. we live in what people are calling 'the age of information' and yet the options of learning this art seem at the moment to be restrictive and prescriptive.

Nah .... its all gone electronic, rituals on line, secret books broken open and published, Crowley shattered that long ago. But as outlined above there is a process involved, and numbers lead to inevitable organisations. Unless people expect others to bend over backwards for them, single handledly take on multiple students, for no payment, teach students according to their own curriculum , etc . ... and ....

I have seen one magician on you tube who takes on an apprentice, but on the whole sharing and helping outside of an order seems very hard to come by.

....Do it on Youtube ( IMO no thanks ! )

there are groups meeting all over the world to discuss the most banal of subjects, education is becoming more and more diverse in its ways of delivering information, but magick and tarot seems far behind in embracing the possibilities today can offer.

this is said with an understanding of the reservations of teaching outside of a structure (nobody wants to be responsible for a Darth Vader), but the option to jointly follow or create a path, outside of an order, seems to be something a lot of people might benefit from?

How would that work ? It sounds like making a group that isnt a group ?

given the nature of the work, to have 'one kindred spirit for face to face discussion' could greatly benefit aspirants and would allow people wider options to meet their preferred way of learning.

I totally agree with the in person thing. As I said, I have one, sometimes 2 or 3 like that. But they have to be quiet special. Even in the 'lesser areas' or taking some one, on line, with astrology or tarot, I dont want to do it again ... I have been abused, apologised too, told ,"sorry I stopped taking my meds " . lied to, had payment offered with them setting the amount, only to be told later I was ripping them off, then an apology followed by confusion, argument about what something meant ( from a student ), also followed by an apology as their relationship wasnt going well ... you name it !

I dont need or want that. I am happy to share on forums and offer person to person help and companionship as a fellow traveller on the path. Frankly, I have bent over backwards to help people through the mysteries of life, nature and their own selves, and I am pretty over being shat upon ( an that includes from the 'washed initiates' as well ) . Nowadays it takes a rare gem for me to get interested.

Crowley makes much of the unique individual perspective and the scheme for development he made public, but the idea of a little worthwhile company along the way seems a gap for many people.

do societies aid or encourage their members to act as envoys, to share their knowledge with non-members? the quote from Lon about the secrets being more about the timing of their delivery being suited to the level of the learner, might be more effectively judged in a one-to-one role?

On some level, thats how the AA works; 1 on 1 , up the ladder.

Outside of that question, most prominent people in esotericism, if wanting to pass on their learning, seem to create their own societies, and so seem to perpetuate the rebuilding of the same wheel (perhaps with good reason?)

Or write books, or create their own movements.

And yet, gauging by this thread, some people would prefer to forge their own path, but with a bit of company and discussion. (the path less walked being the path of genius etc)

ET is a valuable forum and community and perhaps scratches an itch in the absence of 'face-to-face discussions with a kindred spirit' and by its existence shows that a community exists.

So, I was wandering what people thought about:

can and should societies offer mentors to the uninitiated?

yes, some do .

how can face-to-face discussion be facilitated outside of societies?

meet someone and talk to them about things.

Or are societies a tried and trusted means and there because they work?

yes as well ( I dont get the added 'OR' ) ... and I am not sure about the clarity of these questions.

For example OTO states that 9th degrees move about in the world sharing and doing, but often unseen. The old Rosicrucian moved through society unseen, adopting the garb of the country and administering assistance, healing and medicines .

You might even be interacting with some of these people and not knowing it ?

do societal attitudes still make people wary of openly embracing esotercism?

Of course, in some places, they will still kill you due to religious intolerance.

With more and more decks being produced, Wicca being the largest growing religion in the UK, and so many esoteric books popping up on the market, maybe the 'behind closed doors' age is passing and we can embrace more diverse ways of practice?

As you say, its already happened , and it has diluted the mysteries, made them somewhat empty and pop and divorced from their hermetic and philosophical roots - thats the 'new age. That is what happens and that is why it was more regulated. people wanted the gates opened, they opened and this is what we have.

Everything from old rituals being revealed on the internet through to magical teachers giving courses on how to identify which world leader is what alien reptilian overlord ... have fun people, working all that out while navigating your own self constructed and subjective path through it all.

Lon, in his Thoth book, says that societies are not for everyone and that most of the stuff is out there. that given, from contributions to this thread, a little like minded face-to-face discusion could go a long way?

Yep, its all out there, but the old and tested method is to experience it, humans learn from a variety of input and that is what a ceremony does, and you need people and organisation to pull that off.

I am genuinely curious why such a valued and important 'art' continues to be kept underground, and whether this is deemed right for the protection of its community? or do people think it is failing to adapt to the possibilities of modern times.

I think it is more an issue of people not realising the implications one way or another.

Al was of the view that people should be taught tarot as early as possible, and maybe with a demystification of esotericism it could become, in time, part of mainstream curriculums? (yeah....I'm a dreamer.....but I'm not the only one.)

Do you realise some of the esoteric subjects available for study at Uni nowadays ?

Seriously, check it out. starter :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_study_of_Western_esotericism

also check out some of the Euro Unis, they have some very out there courses.

 

[ravenest]

You've covered the ground thoroughly and thoughtfully. I've always had the impression that the Age of Enlightenment turned the uninformed masses against anything that can't be rendered in the terms of "hard science." That and the long-standing religious interdiction, even if that seems to be more perceived than implicit. The general public has been encouraged to ridicule, on one hand, and fear, on the other, anything that can't be engaged by the five senses (unless, of course, it's coming from the priestly class).

Threre are modern tools for reaching out to other aspirants of a group-minded persuasion. Meet-up is a good one that I used for a while, casting my net within a 50-mile radius of my location to see what, if anything is going on locally. Not finding anything pertinent within 25 miles or so, I tried hosting my own Meet-up group (the cost is nominal) but that fizzled due to lack of interest as well. Now I prowl the bookstores (or at least the only local one that caters to "our" type) to see what might pop up on the bulletin boards. The only thing I've found is the occasional lecture or "psychic fair," which is mainly a venue for people selling their readings (who don't really have the time or inclination to chat "off the meter"). We used to have an astrology group going here in "hippie-dom" (aka southern Vermont) 30 years ago, but the leader and a couple of the "prime movers" left the area and the rest have scattered. Seems the "New Age blush" has gone off the rose; it turned out to be something of a "False Spring" or "Piscean Pipe-dream" anyway <grumbles and goes in search of more coffee> . . .

yes, a diffusion ... thats what happens without the structure and order .... like a steam engine .... without containment and direction ... it just evaporates into 'hot air' (steam) .

What we need to do is , nurture and develop its original essence. The Aquarian vision if the 60s and 70s was just that ... a vision, it needs to be grounded and worked on the material, to see what works, what doesnt and make adjustments accordingly.

 

[Tanga]

This describes my one and only experience of occult initiation. (IIRC, I was in contact with you, ravenest, at the time - you might remember.) The organisation in question was comprised mostly of people of such advanced years that they had reached a point where they were pushing really hard to get me and some other younger initiates moving quickly through the grades. The resulting sense of desperation was palpable and very unsettling.

As it turned out, my journey was mismanaged so badly - by myself as well as the so-called "mentors" in the organisation, but I had no guidance so was bound to step awry - that the after effects were, as ravenest said, confusing, frightening and intensely counterproductive. After months of nightmares, broken meditation, depression and constant confusion, I walked away from not only the organisation, but all occult studies, including Tarot. That was...four? years ago? Or so. I'm just now feeling somewhat recovered...but extremely gun-shy.

Oh No! I am so sorry!
(and I know exactly what you mean by the 'palpable sense of desperation')

I'm working up to contacting a different organisation, now. I hope that this time it goes better.

Be upfront with them and explain.
Do not give up.

...Some groups ask that new members begin the process of acquiring a small number of books for study. The catch is that they have to be actual physical books. (The magical link? )
"But they're all free on the internet!!! Why should I have to pay for books? Waaaahhhh!!!"

Those who are really interested will find the money and buy the books.

Is that all? Buy some books? (and I would have bought physical copies anyway as, if it's important - I always want a tangible copy.)
As you say - one would find the money.

 

[ravenest]

[ Edited to remove quotes, as I am raving below about the idea of some things seeming traumatic when applying .. .. I did not mean to directing them at people here, but people I felt ****ed me over in the past and certain ' would be 'Da'at' Vader types. ]



Lets not forget what initiation actually IS ... and many of these groups are initiatory societies.

Traumatic ? It was supposed to be traumatic ! ... emotive, aware, in shock, have fear, mysterious, be revealed, overjoyed, ecstatic ..... you might even die from the process ! Your 'feelings' are SUPPOSED to be triggered !

Thats all a bit too much nowadays eh ? What a bunch of pussies we have become .... "Oh, my letter didnt get answered ... oh, I was spoken to in a way I didnt like ..."

What ? Too hard Princess ! - get over it ... and your self !

Okay, I am finished with that now

......

Its interesting to see the differences of opinion about it all from those that have bitten the mango and those that have not.