User Experiences of Tarot Card Design

[G6]

Equally obviously, many of us have NOT been on the trade train and haven't traded away such decks. I have the Gorgons, and I can and do shuffle it. It is rather large, but the detail ls fantastic at that size.

Sure lots of people trim and post about it. Those of us who don't don't post about not doing because - what's to say ? I have posted in this thread about the two decks I have trimmed - Pink because the artist bit was vile, and one of my Thoths for a specific Thothy reason.

People often trim simply because they don't like the borders, not primarily to make cards smaller.

And NO, Lo Scarabeo decks are only standard FOR THEM - and even then, only for most of their decks. Please don't try and force all decks into their mould. You don't own a Llewellyn ? They are larger than LoS. You refuse all Schiffers ? Connections ?

You want us to believe that Lo Scarabeo have set an industry standard - but it simply isn't true.

It is true. Look at print shops that print standard tarot size decks and they will be 2.5 x 4.5 inches.

 

[G6]

But deck makers and publishers aren't arbitrarily deciding dimensions. They make informed decisions based on a variety of criteria. It might be based on what size they want their artwork to be viewed at. It might, yes, be based on a comfortable average hand size. Even if the decision making process is simply, "This is a standard size, let's go with that" then that is a non-arbitrary decision.

You have the opportunity to talk to a professional artist and tarot designer, here. Ciro Marchetti took the time to write a lengthy response addressing your concerns. In case you didn't recognize the name, he has put out several very popular decks. Here's what he said earlier in this thread -




(bold/emphasis added by me)



As I said earlier in the thread, I don't have statistics obviously, but my sense is that trimmers are a small minority. Designing decks in order to cater to trimmers just doesn't seem like it would be a high priority for an artist.

Although, as I also said earlier in the thread, if I ever put out a deck (I've thought about it many times... I have several cards designed, and ideas for several decks) IF I ever put out a deck, I'd consider making the art full bleed JUST SO nobody would trim my decks, because I probably wouldn't take it with the good grace that many other artists do.

Back to Ciro -



Yep 'bout says it all.

It's not about catering to trimmers. My main point here is if you only have one edition of your deck to print make it standard or smaller, so more people will buy/use it.

 

[G6]

And Android phones outsell iPhones by a factor of about five to one, but I don't see Apple closing any time soon. As Laura said, I do think trimmers are a minority and it doesn't make sense to me to put ergonomic considerations on what are essentially art objects. Playing cards are another story, they are actually a standard size both because of casino regulations but more importantly, they are actually meant to be held in the hand for extended periods of time.

I couldn't disagree more that tarot decks are art objects and size should be decided based on what looks best for the imagery. In my view, tarot decks are handheld tools and ergonomic considerations should be a primary factor in deciding dimensions. I see tarot cards as no different than playing cards. They should be comfortable for extended hand use. I get a cramp in my hand from oversized decks.

 

[G6]

THIS !

Let artists do as they wish; let publishers print as they wish; let us, the end users, buy what we wish. Where's the problem here ? If people ONLY want LoS sized decks - then those are the only ones that will sell. That is palpably not true. MANY of us here buy decks in all sorts of sizes and most of us do NOT trim them.

Cirom has outlined the artist's position very well, and I agree with him 105%. Do you want him forced to have his lovely cards shrunk just so that you can shuffle them more easily ? or to amend his artwork just for that end ?

Yes, I do. In fact, I trimmed those door sized cards from his oracle deck and it's still oversized, lol! There is only a downside for me with oversized cards no upside. I don't have a vision impairment. My eyes work fine. If you all want to see the detail better have you thought about bringing the card to your face to get a closer look or investing in a cheap magnifying glass? That ought to solve your problem.

 

[G6]

This thread is too funny, ha!

 

[gregory]

Cirom has outlined the artist's position very well, and I agree with him 105%. Do you want him forced to have his lovely cards shrunk just so that you can shuffle them more easily ? or to amend his artwork just for that end ?

Yes, I do. In fact, I trimmed those door sized cards from his oracle deck and it's still oversized, lol! There is only a downside for me with oversized cards no upside. I don't have a vision impairment. My eyes work fine. If you all want to see the detail better have you thought about bringing the card to your face to get a closer look or investing in a cheap magnifying glass? That ought to solve your problem.

It is quite extraordinarily arrogant to tell an artist he should do what you want, simply for your convenience. Have you considered that since you seem to be in something of a fairly small minority, you could simply avoid buying decks you feel you cannot shuffle, or learn nisaba's way of doing so, which I feel sure would allow for your statement that you need to use "an overhand shuffle holding cards in my right hand and shuffling into my left. This is how spirit moves through the cards to select the message."

I have perfectly good vision, and I don't see why I should have to squint at smaller cards just so that you should be able to shuffle them more easily. There are plenty of decks in the size you like. To make them all be the way you want would deprive the rest of us - a majority - of the variety and the splendid artwork we value. Also I am certain sure that if artists were told "your art has to fit into 2.75 x 4.75" or whatever it is, many of them would just say what the hell and give up on tarot. We need our artists. We need them a lot more than we need you to be able to decide what size decks we get from them.

As for

It is true. Look at print shops that print standard tarot size decks and they will be 2.5 x 4.5 inches.

- that isn't where most ARTISTS go to get printed. That's on the whole where people who want just a few copies go, people who would not want to seek out a publisher and get into contracts and so on. That's admittedly where I got mine done - but it wasn't in fact an ideal size for my images (I would not call them art !!) Even printerstudio recognises this and offers "Large (3.5" x 5.75")" as well - and at least one artist who posts here uses that size there.

I couldn't disagree more that tarot decks are art objects and size should be decided based on what looks best for the imagery. In my view, tarot decks are handheld tools and ergonomic considerations should be a primary factor in deciding dimensions. I see tarot cards as no different than playing cards. They should be comfortable for extended hand use. I get a cramp in my hand from oversized decks.

And the rest of us get frustrated - and indeed saddened - by unnecessarily compressed art. Clearly you need to find a better way to shuffle. I'm sure spirit will move through the cards just fine when you do.

My main point here is if you only have one edition of your deck to print make it standard or smaller, so more people will buy/use it.

I am not aware that any publisher has suffered a loss of sales simply over card size. I am even aware that many publishers have been asked to make a deck larger. Not to bring in another size, simply to make it larger - Shadowscapes is a case in point. And if the art matters so much less to you than your shuffling technique - why do you need such a variety of decks that you cannot fill your needs with what is available in the size you want ?

Basically, I think you've made your point - you want cards issued only in one size so that you don't get cramp when shuffling, and you think we who value the artwork should buy magnifying glasses. I think the vast majority of us disagree. I think most of us would agree that ergonomics are very much secondary to art. I think that is the whole message of this thread.

 

[nisaba]

I am even aware that many publishers have been asked to make a deck larger. Not to bring in another size, simply to make it larger - Shadowscapes is a case in point.

Another case in point is the specialist Tarot publisher MRP. (Magic Realist Press). They publish only Tarot and Tarot-related stuff AFAIK, and only THEIR OWN artistic endeavours. They are not just publishers, they are creators as well. I don't have all their decks, but I have several of them, and they are of more-or-less average height, but significantly broader, giving them room for more of their fine artwork, downright glorious artwork. Owning one of their decks is like carrying a high-end art gallery in your hand, and I'm fortunate enough to have a number of them.

And despite my stubby little fingers, I *do* use them. Frequently. Shuffling with great pleasure. Overhand, from right hand to left.

And yet another non-standard sizer is the deck-creator Luigi Scapini, and I have five or six of his decks as well. He likes to work on very narrow, tall cards, an entirely different dynamic visually to the MRP viewing experience. And I can go straight from one of their overly wide decks to one of his overly narrow ones without agonising about it or opening threads about it or even thinking about it, and get the full pleasure of the different sized decks printed as the artists originally wanted them.

I suppose that shows how insensitive I am.

 

[Citrin]

Hmm no I don't really believe in a standard tarot size, and neither a standard card stock type. There are so many different opinions about what size is the best!

And I also see that different decks have the need for different size. I don't mind the size of the Shadowscapes Tarot at all, BUT I do mind it when it comes to that specific artwork. That deck would be better off bigger.

Some people swear that the Wild Unknown first edition is the best card stock EVER. And I'm shocked lol! I really dislike that card stock! Yes, it's Beautiful and feels very high quality, but for me it's too sturdy/hard to shuffle with ease! I personally love LoScarabeo and (the old) Llewellyn card stock, because it's easy to shuffle and has a good level of glossiness. But that's just me...

I also see so many people hating borders, while I really don't! Yes, some are dreadful and unecessary, but others are fantastic and just add to the Beauty of a deck IMO.

I do wish that the publishers would react in those cases when a lot of people are actually wanting changes, a bigger Shadowscapes, less gloss on Schiffer decks, etc... But it does mean we gotta be good at making our opinions heard, as in e-mailing them etc. Otherwise not much will happen.

 

[gregory]

And in MRP's case - their "standard" size is larger than most in the first place - and they are ALWAYS asked for larger versions. The new Prague is a case in point. (they are also asked for minis - cuz CUTE - but that's for fun as much as anything). And I cannot see the Prague working in mini. I can't see it working in 2.5 x 4.5 either. even if the proportions could fit.

Actually, come to think of it - I take part in a regular collaborative deck, and the size for that - EVERY YEAR - is 3 x 4.5 inches.

ETA while looking something up for someone I was reminded of a very fine reading deck.

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/corte-tarocchi/

There is no POSSIBLE way it could fit into your narrow parameters, and no possible excuse for wrecking the stunning art by trying to force it to be shuffleable just for you. And yes, I note that the reviewer recommends it be used by seasoned readers as querents may have trouble shuffling it. Well, so I shuffle it myself. And I gather your querents don't shuffle for you, as you say you need spirit to flow through your hands, so that won't be an issue here. Best you don't buy it. but many of us love it.

 

[bonebeach]

It is quite extraordinarily arrogant to tell an artist he should do what you want, simply for your convenience. Have you considered that since you seem to be in something of a fairly small minority

Mmmhmmm.

Variety of opinion is so great! Variety of product options, so great!

But I think Gregory has been on point all thread. OP appears to have a deep seated conviction that they are representative of the majority of tarot users, and then when other tarot users disagree and point out that the community does not need (or even want) what OP insists that we need...

Shrug. whachagonnado.

(aside: I hadn't seen Le Corte dei Tarocchi before and I love it!)

The distinction between art object and functional object is not always a clear one. We can have beautifully designed things that still serve a purpose, and humanity has been all about that for a very long time. Graceful but functional water pitchers. Elegantly engraved knife blades. And so on.

Most things in life are a balance of functionality and beauty, but to dismiss the VISUAL ART aspect of tarot entirely and to boldly proclaim that the only thing that matters is a very narrow and personal take on usability...

I mean. At very least, that's arrogant.

If art doesn't matter, if tarot isn't art, then why not write down the card names on index cards and be done with it? After all, those come in highly standard sizes.