Variant approaches to the Thoth: Angeles Arrien's book

[gregory]

it isn't OK to say that because he did [tell jokes] that we can assume that he didn't mean any of what he said.

I didn't know this was an issue. The original reference was to Scion asking

What kind of person teaches people falsehoods willfully? It's pathological.

I pointed out that the whole Golden Dawn system was based on deliberate falsehoods and that Crowley also used them. I don't have a problem with my tradition coming out of this. Do you?

No. But there was also the post:

The whole founding of the Golden Dawn was based on a lie. Florence Farr and quit when she found out. I met several people when I lived in London in 1971-72 who had known Crowley. They enjoyed regaling me with stories of how he laughed at gullible people who believed his fakery (turning water into wine at gatherings and tales of certain feats he'd accomplished).

I'll get back to the rest later, but let's face it— the whole occult tarot tradition is built on a mix of outright falsehoods and faulty suppositions.

Which kind of suggested to me the idea that the whole occult tradition Crowley put into the deck was a fake and not worth considering. But it underpins the deck; you need it – whether he joked about it or not.

Whatever, the Book of Thoth is a LOT more interesting and meaty than Arrien's book. . . . I came to it from looking at it and realising that there was a hell of a lot to it which merited study.

I agree with this completely. Angie's book and classes were extremely helpful to me in an entirely different way.

It came over as being a better way and that the occult study wasn’t at all necessary to appreciate the deck. I cannot agree with that.

Are you saying that what is now seen in the deck by people like Duquette is not what was intended when it was created ?

Not specifically, although I'm sure I could find something questionable if I looked hard enough. I was referring to Arrien - she saw things in the deck that were not specifically intended when it was created.

As do we all. But you still need the study of Crowley’s own writings to understand the deck, and the idea of “dumbing it all down” to make it acceptable and “easy” is one that is anathema to me. It is something that happens far too often these days and with too many things. Taking the easy way to avoid working at anything. It devalues everything it touches, that approach.

I read a book once, it said the world was hollow and we were living inside it.
Now that really is crap.

How do you know ? Seriously ?

 

[Teheuti]

Can I ask what the row is about?

I think I finally figured it out - see post #76 above:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=1465291&postcount=76

Mary

 

[Lillie]

How do you know ? Seriously ?

Duh!

Cos that's where the aliens live, and their space ships come out through the hole in the north pole....

 

[gregory]

Duh!

Cos that's where the aliens live, and their space ships come out through the hole in the north pole....

Oh OK - fair enough

 

[Teheuti]

Originally Posted by teheuti
The whole founding of the Golden Dawn was based on a lie. Florence Farr and quit when she found out. I met several people when I lived in London in 1971-72 who had known Crowley. They enjoyed regaling me with stories of how he laughed at gullible people who believed his fakery (turning water into wine at gatherings and tales of certain feats he'd accomplished).

I'll get back to the rest later, but let's face it— the whole occult tarot tradition is built on a mix of outright falsehoods and faulty suppositions.

Which kind of suggested to me the idea that the whole occult tradition Crowley put into the deck was a fake and not worth considering.

I'm talking about the foundational documents. The occult tarot tradition is based on the work of Antoine Court de Gébelin - probably more faulty supposition then lie. The Golden Dawn was taught as being given a charter from a European organization led by hidden masters - which Florence Farr and most people since that time have come to believe to be a lie. The source for the cipher manuscript was also lied about. This manuscript contained the correspondences used in the GD tarot tradition.

You may have thought that I meant the whole occult tradition Crowley put into the deck was a fake and not worth considering, but that was not my thought or belief at all. The lies and faulty history do not stop my working with the Golden Dawn-based tarot system. I do try to evaluate and weigh carefully the information I am given. For instance, I don't believe everything Crowley says just because he said it.

Have you read the official Golden Dawn History Paper written by Westcott?

Mary

 

[Always Wondering]

I personally come to this specific forum to learn about the deck Crowley designed, why he designed it and how he intended it to be used. I don’t go to the Oracle form and complain that they are only looking at pictures. To each their own. If I wanted an intuitive take on the Thoth Tarot I would sit in my room, all by myself and ask, what does this mean to me. Or I could to many, many sites and learn, what does it mean to other people. Where else is one to go but a Thoth Tarot Forum as an offshoot of a Tarot History Forum to seek the facts of Thoth deck. Don’t get me wrong, I have enjoyed this discussion. If there had been discussions such as this around my dinner table growing up I would not have to work so hard for enlightenment in my middle age. I feel protective over this forum and its clear and its stated intent. I feel this has become a valiant and personal defense of a much loved teacher and I can respect that. But does it belong in a Thoth History Forum?

AW

 

[gregory]

It is a THOTH forum, not a Thoth History forum. But yes, it does belong here, as it is a discussion about which books will help with the study of the deck. Which is in turn useful information for those who want to learn.

Have you read the official Golden Dawn History Paper written by Westcott?

I've read him on the Rosicrucians, but not that one, I think.....

ed. No, but now I am doing; just downloaded it. Thanks. It's pretty short - maybe that's not it..... ?

 

[Lillie]

If people miss the fact that Crowley writ a book to go with his deck and buy something else instead, then it's their look out.

Personally I'll talk to the organ grinder rather than the monkey, but every one has to make their own decisions.

 

[Teheuti]

you still need the study of Crowley’s own writings to understand the deck, and the idea of “dumbing it all down” to make it acceptable and “easy” is one that is anathema to me.

As I realized when writing post 76, Angie was exploring what she felt was an alternative way to understand some aspects of the deck (the symbols - as symbols common to humanity) that didn't involve studying Crowley's own writings. The extent to which she was successful in this is a matter of personal opinion and probably the needs of the user of the deck.

What I hear is your loathing of there being an easy way to be with the deck. You fear that anything not involving a difficult study of Crowley would result in something "dumb." I'd like to know what this would look like in practice. Could you give us a worst case example of exactly what this would look like?

Mary

 

[Aeon418]

A few choice words from Mr Crowley himself:

The cards are not to be sold without the book.

If Lady Harris likes, she can give it away with the cards, I do not want any money out of it: and she can say she wrote it, I don't care.

But I will not allow the cards to be issued so that they can be used only for gambling or fortune-telling.

It's pretty clear that Crowley wanted The Book of Thoth and the Deck to go together. It is also clear that he did not want the deck to stand alone because of the danger of it being grossly debased and used for gambling, or as is the case in this thread, fortune telling. He was so concerned about this that he was even prepared to let Harris take full credit for the entire project, so long as the book went with the deck.

It appears from a notice in the Exhibition that there is a proposal to publish the cards as a pack without this book. To do so would limit their use to fortune-telling, a form of fraud against which you have constantly set your face your whole life long. We refuse to believe that you have now consented to prostitute the Sacred Wisdom of Thoth to this base and dishonest purpose and we insist upon this point being made clear.