What else?!

[Aeon418]

If it's used in addressing God, it implies that God is familiar to one, as in "I And Thou".

Bingo! In Thelemic parlance it is called the Holy Guardian Angel. But this is another "loaded" term that is just as easy to misunderstand.

Let me spin the question back to you, or thou if you wish. If we were to re-write the phrase as, Do what you wilt shall be the whole of the Law, which part of yourself is doing the Willing? If you say it's your ordinary conscious self, your personality, or your ego, you have effectively substituted Will for wants, whims, fancies, inclinations, and caprice.

I:41 Who calls us Thelemites will do no wrong, if he look but close into the word. For there are therein Three Grades, the Hermit, and the Lover, and the man of Earth. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

The Man (or woman) of earth aspires to union with Thou. The Lover is united with Thou. The Hermit is One with Thou.

Off to the British Council library in Jerusalem tomorrow to see if they have Sutin or Kaczynski (sp?). It's no use scandal-mongering if one doesn't know about the scandals.

I doubt you will find Kaczynski. (Pronounced Ka-chin-ski.) The other modern day bio's? Sutin's has been out for a while and has been re-released in paperback so there's a good chance you might be able to find it. The late Martin Booth's, A Magick Life (printed 2000) is quite reasonable too. But be careful what you wish for, you just might get it and end up with Roger Hutchinson.

 

[Aeon418]

Excuse me and you are SPOT ON RIGHT. I will edit RIGHT NOW !

No problem.

 

[Aeon418]

Thou

Here's part of the anthem from the Gnostic Mass. It may shed some light on the Thelemic usage of the word, thou.

Thou who art I, beyond all I am,
Who hast no nature and no name,
Who art, when all but thou are gone,
Thou, centre and secret of the Sun,
Thou, hidden spring of all things known
And unknown, Thou aloof, alone,
Thou, the true fire within the reed
Brooding and breeding, source and seed
Of life, love, liberty, and light,
Thou beyond speech and beyond sight,
Thee I invoke, my faint fresh fire
Kindling as mine intents aspire.
Thee I invoke, abiding one,
Thee, centre and secret of the Sun,
And that most holy mystery
Of which the vehicle am I.

 

[gregory]

Believe it or not, as a vicar's daughter, Thou - Christian and generic as a concept of "other" - which covers the Thelemic too (he was a scholarly vicar !) is one thing I TOTALLY get.

I was sloppy. I will smack me !

 

[Aeon418]

Believe it or not, as a vicar's daughter, Thou - Christian and generic as a concept of "other" - which covers the Thelemic too (he was a scholarly vicar !) is one thing I TOTALLY get.

Yes, that's it. Other.

I think it's very common for modern readers, who are unfamiliar with this kind of King James Bible language, to substitute their own words in place of the archaic ones. The trouble is that the difference in meaning is absolutely huge.

The same applies to the phrase, Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. To modern ears it sounds like information and a chit-chat. But that's not the kind of Know-ledge implied here. Know what I mean?

 

[gregory]

Yes, that's it. Other.

I think it's very common for modern readers, who are unfamiliar with this kind of King James Bible language, to substitute their own words in place of the archaic ones. The trouble is that the difference in meaning is absolutely huge.

The same applies to the phrase, Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. To modern ears it sounds like information and a chit-chat. But that's not the kind of Know-ledge implied here. Know what I mean?

Oh yes We get each other you and I. Language I can do. And the IDIOTS who modernised the bible have a HELL of a lot to answer for !

What I DON'T all get (yet) is the Crowley stuff

 

[Richard]

ETA I guess all the bases were covered while I was drafting the post. However, "thou" was used in the King James Bible simply to translate the second person singular nominative case personal pronoun (familiar form) in Greek and Hebrew. It is used in some churches to address God in prayer because it has a holier sound than "you," its exact modern English equivalent.

 

[ravenest]

Thou thou God god ?

I assumed Thou refered to diety (as in the anthem) - with a capital T and thou refered to an earlier usage equivlent to 'you'.

I personally believe that one (thou) CAN express their True Will without conscious knowledge and contact with 'higher' aspects of themselves or attaining a particular grade in one particiular system.

I remember years ago I was teaching a 'know yourself' programme to year 10 students where we looked at the concept of the True Will. One kid thought the whole thing rather strange and couldnt understand why some of the others were confused by the concept,
" I already know what my life purpose is." and he went on to explain it, how he loved doing that, had already started it, how it was in his family, how he already had the resources, how he was so good at it ... how he dreampt about it as a young child, etc.

I think its not impossible that some of us do know, from the begining of our incarnation what our lifes purpose is, where our genius of expression lies, which path our personal development lies on and how that helps the evolution and harmony of the society we incarnate in. In short; WHY we are here.

Not that this doesnt come from a particular level of conciousness that one may chose to name HGA but that it is a natural freeflowing 'knowing'.

Some may disagree and say he was just indoctrinated by his parents, but a good parent will bring their kid up the right way and not pen in a shark or put a goat in the ocean. Maybe he had good "thelemic' parents? I've known a few - a challenge for me because mine were the opposite.

Of course one may be confused and not be on the right path, thinking it is. One may also go through a whole regime of training and do it the other way ... they never make mistakes or become mentally unbalanced do they?

The 'message' or 'knowledge' might come from Thou but it comes down to the everyday thou that fullfills it and brings it into manifestation, be it a butcher, baker, mother or helicopter pilot.

So, do what thou wilt ... but be honest with yourself about it - then you will fullfill your Will - unless you have a problem with your hardwiring or software ... and if you have that, better get THAT fixed first, especially before taking up a system of training to put you in touch with 'higher' aspects of yourself.

 

[Richard]

I don't especially like the terms "higher self" or "divine self." Sounds too dualistic, like New Age jargon. Capitalization? O.K., "thou"="you" and "Thou"="You." Heck, I'm holy. Capitalize me if you wish.

Here's something Crowley wrote about the True Will:

"There seems to be much misunderstanding about True Will ... The fact of a person being a gentleman is as much an ineluctable factor as any possible spiritual experience; in fact, it is possible, even probable, that a man may be misled by the enthusiasm of an illumination, and if he should find apparent conflict between his spiritual duty and his duty to honour, it is almost sure evidence that a trap is being laid for him and he should unhesitatingly stick to the course which ordinary decency indicates ... I wish to say definitely, once and for all, that people who do not understand and accept this position have utterly failed to grasp the fundamental principles of the Law of Thelema."

Magical Diaries of Aleister Crowley : Tunisia 1923 (1996), edited by Stephen Skinner p.21

 

[Aeon418]

I personally believe that one (thou) CAN express their True Will without conscious knowledge and contact with 'higher' aspects of themselves or attaining a particular grade in one particiular system.

Believe it or not I agree with you. You don't need conscious knowledge or conscious contact with the True Will to begin to express it. But that does not mean there is no contact at all, does it?

[I know you hate it when I do this. ] Using the A.'.A.'. grade structure as a generic map of self development we see that a person who does have conscious contact is an Adept 5=6. One who has attained to the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. OK, but what about the vast majority of people who haven't reached this stage yet? Are they cut off from their True Will? Absolutely not. The point of contact for non-Adepts is subconscious. It manifests through dreams, intuitions, feelings of inner certainty, that instinctive feeling of "rightness" that occurs when we're on the right track in our lives.

But at this level of interaction with the Will it can easily be confused with the everyday changing whims and desires of the ego. This is why there is a need for self exploration, self development, and a strengthening of the intuitive sense. Because intuition is almost all you have for most of the time.

You're an ex-member of O.T.O, so I'm sure you must have met people who were a little confused about Crowley's approach. The philosophy of Thelema is, Do what thou wilt, but the very first O.T.O. documents are packed full of guidance and guidelines on how members of the order should behave and interact with each other and the wider world. Surely none of this is necessary. But Crowley knew that it was necessary because "Do what thou wilt" is not enough for people who are intuitively finding their way through the maze. Until conscious contact is established it is very easy to get things wrong unless you are operating with a guiding framework that's designed to help stop you making a complete prat out of yourself.

Déjà vu? We had this exact same conversation last year. Or was it the year before?