World Wide Tarot Decks Library/Museum

[gregory]

I have never looked for all the cards on the net before buying. I guess it's more laziness on my part. LOL...Although, I do like to see more than one card.

I like it to be a bit of a surprise. Just like with my most recent purchase Legacy of the Divine for its surprises. It wouldn't have been the same if I had seen all the cards before hand.

JMHO

It never OCCURRED to me to look at a whole deck before buying..... *wanders off baffled*

*returns to say - of course, if I had I would never have found the time to come here - looking AFTERWARDS takes QUITE long enough !*

And here is another take. I used to go regularly to the lovely Mr Somerville's store when it was in Edinburgh, and buy stuff. And order and go pick it up and so on. (and break my back carrying boxes to the car, and.... yes, well ANYWAY....)

One day he asked - "do you open these up and look at them ?"

Amazed - I said - "well, of course - what would be the point otherwise ?"

"Oh good," he said. "Some are so lovely and I know a lot of people who leave them in the shrink wrap and never open them up."

???? WTF.

And yes, LeFanu - it is SUCH fun tearing open the parcels on the couch and spreading the cards out and sitting there saying WOW !

 

[baba-prague]

If I were to log on to e-bay or amazon, there is a good likely hood that I would find some item, anything from a fridge magnet to a light switch cover that is using my imagery without my permission. I really don't give a crap about the financial repercussions of that (after all what's a sausage less here or there But its the integrity of it that annoys me and sometimes those items make me cringe.

Yes exactly. Plus legally, the sad fact is that if ever things come to court, you are in a weakened position if you can't prove that you acted on every copyright infringement. Which means I have to spend hours of my life writing to people who have stuffed our images - badly - on to awful products that they are flogging on ebay. Because otherwise I jeopardise our long-term copyright protection.

So, yes, "jaded" is the nicest way to put it I can think of.

By the way, I now have to fill in a four page form (which will ruin my afternoon and prevent me doing the design work I had planned) to get a full scan of the Bohemian Cats Tarot - downloadable as a high-res PDF no less - off some site that's just popped up. Great.

 

[gregory]

What site, Karen - so we can all start complaining ? (Tell me it isn't that Russian thing again ?)

 

[baba-prague]

What site, Karen - so we can all start complaining ? (Tell me it isn't that Russian thing again ?)

No, it isn't the Russian thing - though they are still a pain quite honestly. Our Russian friend who is a champion for copyright - she has quietly reported lots of boot-leg stuff there which I think is positively heroic of her - will be here soon and no doubt we will talk about all this over a few glasses of wine!

I appreciate the offer Gregory, but I think I won't say which until (assuming all goes well) they have removed it, as I know that some people will just download the PDF if I put up the link. It's a large site that allows people to publish all sorts of stuff. Ironically the person who published this has marked it as needed to be attributed to... them!

By the way, we are very happy for people to use our work on blogs, non-commercial tarot-reading sites (and even under some circumstances small commercial ones) and so on. But then, people who want to use the images for a good purpose are nearly always the very people who are sweet and considerate enough to ask.

 

[thorhammer]

But then, people who want to use the images for a good purpose are nearly always the very people who are sweet and considerate enough to ask.

Agreed. And this is why, when setting up my etsy store, I requested permission to use decks in my photos, for display and scale purposes - and I very specifically didn't ask you guys, Karen, because I felt that would have been just RUDE! Considering you're on etsy as well, and the fabric stuff is quite a large chunk of your stock in trade, whereas the publisher I contacted is mostly about decks, and not on etsy.

\m/ Kat

 

[baba-prague]

Well, we are actually currently doing two full collaborations with people who sell on Etsy so that's not necessarily a problem, though I do appreciate what you're saying TH and thanks for being so considerate.

In both cases btw the first pieces are made but not ready yet to show. I'd love to say more, but I think it would be off-thread.

I think the main point though is that I'm sure many deck makers are, like us, happy to enter into all sorts of co-operations and collaborations. It's when people produce poorly-made pieces from our work, without any prior permission, that it causes problems.

 

[ilweran]

It isn't really a matter of payment. I think for most publishers it's much more about protecting copyright, which is basically what we live on.

I just wanted to reply to this quickly - as I understood the original post, the idea was that there should be an online archive that people subscribed to and that publishers gave their permission for their decks to be shown, which is completely different from what someone like Taroteca does.

A scheme like that would presumably go to some lengths to make it as difficult as possible for images to be downloaded.

My point was that publishers wouldn't be asked to do this for free - in the same way as if a workplace wants to play music they have to pay the PRS for that right. Publishers would be negotiated with and an agreement sought.

Not that I can see it happening on either side - I imagine it would be expensive and time consuming to set up and as I said before I doubt any publishers would sign up to it.

For myself, I'd like it if publishers would consider making scans of OOP decks that they have no intention of re-printing available. Modestly priced downloads would be fine.

If you are going to miss out on buying a terrific deck that you would have loved immensely and learnt heaps from for the rest of your life merely because you don't get given all 78 images to look at before buying ... well ... your loss.

As someone who's done both... I mostly don't go looking at sites that show the whole deck before choosing what to buy, but occasionally I have and have usually ended up buying the deck and being very happy with it. But I've also bought decks based on the packaging or the six cards Aeclectic shows that I've regretted getting and I can't afford to do that now - and the trading forum here isn't the answer to everything as there have been decks I've been unable to shift there.

Yes, I may miss out on a fantastic deck but with limited funds choices have to made and if there are two decks I'd like but aren't quite sure about and one has scans I can check out and the other doesn't...

Though I do agree those sites are wrong to break the law, but it's hard not to use them at least sometimes once you know they're there.

 

[cirom]

Based on all the pros and cons, I don't see too much of a problem if the following three conditions would be followed.

1)It would only include decks with permission from the copyright holders.

2)Full credit is given to the publisher, artist etc, with direct links to their corresponding web sites.

3)It would be produced in such a way as to block downloading of the images.

That should allow everyone involved a choice.

Potential buyers can view the entire deck if they feel they need to do so before deciding to buy, or are simply curious.
Artists and publishers can decide if they wish to participate or not.
And it does'nt simply allow everyone on the internet access to the images beyond looking.

Ok I know that someone with enough technical expertise and determination will find a work around, but you get my point.

This scenario is unlike Taroteca and other similar sites, who for all their supposed "good intentions" arbitrarily display entire decks, invite others to add to the collection, and all on a site that also allows those very images to be converted into books, calendars, prints etc. A process that bypasses, indeed even competes with the very people who created the original material.

Tell me again how thats supposed to be OK?

What I still haven't decided is wether the people behind these sites, are doing so in some naive state of not realizing the morality of their actions, and innocently believe they are doing something good. Or they are fully aware of the reality and simply don't give a damn. If at some point I conclude its the latter, I think I will defiantly change my tune in response and start to fill in some of those forms that Baba referred to.

 

[baba-prague]

This scenario is unlike Taroteca and other similar sites, who for all their supposed "good intentions" arbitrarily display entire decks, invite others to add to the collection, and all on a site that also allows those very images to be converted into books, calendars, prints etc. A process that bypasses, indeed even competes with the very people who created the original material.

Tell me again how thats supposed to be OK?

What I still haven't decided is wether the people behind these sites, are doing so in some naive state of not realizing the morality of their actions, and innocently believe they are doing something good. Or they are fully aware of the reality and simply don't give a damn. If at some point I conclude its the latter, I think I will defiantly change my tune in response and start to fill in some of those forms that Baba referred to.

I also wasn't sure if it was done innocently, until I realised that the intention is most definitely to make money from selling the prints, calendars etc that you've mentioned. If this was innocent, the owners of sites such as this would respond to emails and would not play games such as temporarily removing decks then putting them up again - which is what they have done with us.

I hate to say it, but having for some time tried to think the best, I've come to the conclusion that it's deliberate theft and these people know quite well what they're doing. They don't seem to give a **** about the amount of time and effort that getting the stuff taken down uses up. So much for "services to tarot"! Personally I'm going to begin to take much tougher action on all this as it's undermining artists and chipping away at their ability to make a living, which is hard enough as it is.

Edited to add. By the way, I agree with you Cirom, that a properly administered site showing decks would be absolutely fine. Personally, I would like it to be part of Aeclectic, so that I really do know that it's trustworthy (sorry, no criticism of anyone here intended, and I hope this does not cause offence). Large hint to Solandia!

 

[baba-prague]

Hmm...

Actually, you know, the more I think about an AT-run site, the better the idea seems. You could have links from each deck to the artist/publisher's site and if there were any products sold you could arrange to give a percentage to AT - I'd be all in favour of that.

It would mean that everyone would have control of what products associated with their decks are sold and by whom, and people here would get to see entire decks if they want to - albeit with watermarks. The copyright owner would get the benefit of their work and there would be some benefit to AT too.

I think it's quite a good idea, although I can see it would be a lot of work to set up.