XV - Devil

noby

I have some issues with the Devil card, not so much because of the card itself, but because of the tradition and history behind it.

I understand its divinatory meanings, such as bondage and materialism, and think it's important to have a card that signifies such things. But the symbolism and its message troubles me. The image of the devil created by Christianity was a recasting of the pagan Horned God, which did not represent evil, but represented enjoyment of the world, the senses, the flesh. I think many problems in the world today are caused by our rejection of aspects of ourselves that are healthy and natural, that connect us back to the world of the wilderness and our animal selves.

The Rider-Waite underscores this transformation and correlation with the tails of grapes and fire depicted on its couple. The grapes can be seen as representing wine and intoxication or food, the senses, the pleasure of the senses. The tail of fire can be seen as representing passion and sexuality.

I find it deeply bothersome that this card represents the Christian tradition of demonizing the body, the senses, the pleasures of the world by associating symbols that in the past were associated with joy and revelry to a figure that represents ignorance and bondage.

While I'm sure there are probably pagan decks that recast this image, I don't like that either, as I think the meanings behind the Devil card are important to keep in, as other cards in the Rider-Waite depict the positive qualities of abundance, revelry, and sexuality associated with the Horned God. And I'd find it even more insulting to come across a pagan deck that depicted XV as the Horned God, but kept the divinatory associations and meanings of the Devil for the card.

I really like the Rider-Waite symbols and system, and have a connection with and understanding of the cards that keeps me from having to refer to books as often during a reading, but this card is one of the things about RWS that really sticks in my craw.
 

rota

"but this card is one of the things about RWS that really sticks in my craw."

++++++

Your explanation makes your reaction seem reasonable enough. To my mind, though, the use of the scary demon figure in Key XV doesn't so much have to do with demonizing the physical body and its urges, so much as it has to do with voluntarily choosing unnecessary bondage to unhelpful distractions. I have two reactions.
The first is that use of a scary demon figure to represent clinging to the physical is not unique to Christianity. You see similar ideas in art from other Near East sources -- Egypt, Judea, Persia, India: Apollyon, Typhon, Set, Ahriman. It might be that the misuse or appropriation of the Horned God symbol could be understood as a natural outgrowth of Western culture, i.e. you've got to have some kind of symbol for badness, and you've got to get it somewhere. Remember also that the Greeks used Pan as a symbol for lower desires run riot, and he's always shown with horns and goat feet. (Pan of course has his higher aspects as well, but they're not commonly seen in Greek stories. 'Pan' means 'all', after all... Out of sight, out of mind, I guess.)
The second is to ask you what you might consider a more acceptable symbol for materialism/physicality/imprisonment/'evil'?
 

Umbrae

Let me see…I need to add up these steps here…3+5+7=15…and 12+3=15.

Thinking in numerological notions – it makes some sense with the second but not much with the first…

I’ve never been truly satisfied with the image as an archetype. It’s not clear. It’s not true.

Is it the bogy that hides under the bed (or in the closet)? The wolf with the fur turned inside?

Materialism? Then lose the horned goat head and put up a tender (the offer of or for a store of value) exchange!
 

Ace

noby said:
I have some issues with the Devil card, not so much because of the card itself, but because of the tradition and history behind it.

II find it deeply bothersome that this card represents the Christian tradition of demonizing the body, the senses, the pleasures of the world by associating symbols that in the past were associated with joy and revelry to a figure that represents ignorance and bondage.
Click to expand...

This IS a Christian Deck. That is why the devil-a traditional symbol of evil is used. The Christian deadly sins of gluttony and lust are in the tails.

You might check out the Robin Wood deck. She deletes out the Devil. Keeping in a lot of invocations of Hell, and evil-even a reversed pentagram! while not using the Devil as the main symbol (Robin Wood is a pagan herself)
 

noby

Thanks for the interesting and perceptive thoughts on this, rota! You're right that the kind of half-man / half-beast figure has long been used as a symbol of needing to balance the "beast within" with one's other aspects. That helps me see the figure more as a general representation, not as a re-casting of one particular figure, which helps.

Ace, it doesn't bother me at all that the deck is a Christian one. Though I'm not Christian, I like a lot of the symbolism and ideas from mystical and traditional Christianity. Hell, of the three decks I own right now, all of which I like and connect with, two of 'em are Christian in nature (Templar and Universal Waite). Having grown up in the Bible Belt, Jesus, the Bible, and all their attendant imagery have a strong power over and resonance within my psyche. It's just this one particular card and one particular facet of the Christian tradition that really gets to me when reading with this deck. Not enough to have a fit over, but enough for me to feel moved to express it.

And I've looked at the Robin Wood, and don't like it at all. To me, in that deck, lots of the women look like Barbie, and lots of the men look like Ken. Blargh. I like a lot of the ideas behind the deck, but the execution leaves quite a bit to be desired for me. It's a bit cutesy for my taste.

The decks I like best right now are Navigators of the Mystic Sea and the International Icon tarots. Both use color and posture to evoke moods and energies, and both take the cards out of any one specific racial or cultural context... I love it. That said, I really think the Rider-Waite is a fabulous deck, and since so much of what I've studied addresses it, I've got a pretty good feel for it by now, at least as a beginner.

And rota's points have spurred me to make a bit of peace with this card... Looking at the Devil figure as a representation of the "beast within" that can let us be overpowered and enslaved by our desires, rather than a condemnation of earthly pleasures, helps me get a grip on the card that allows me to approach it more sympathetically.
 

firemaiden

I wonder if the tail is what grows if you are bad. Kind of like Pinocchio's nose. He tells lies, his nose gets longer. :) :--) :---) (I learned that trick from jmd... he has lots of tricks.)

Pinocchio also grows a tail - later, not just a tail, but jackass ears, and then becomes a full-fledged donkey! And why? because he went to "Pleasure Island" instead of going to school, (!) giving into every whim (eating only candy, and smoking, and gambling etc.) - remember? (and when he becomes a full-fledged donkey, he is a total slave, remember? isn't that cool how it fits the devil card?)

I remember at the end of One Thousand Years of Solitude, a child is born with the tail of a pig - born to parents who are brother and sister - the consequence (and punishment?) of an incestuous mariage.

Perhaps the tail is meant to represent the badge of shame, for those who have capitulated to temptations, and who have somehow in the process made themselves less "human".

The tail could have its positive connotations too! I'm re-reading Woman who Run with the Wolves - sometimes it is good to embrace our animal nature.

Yeah, tails are cool :D
 

Antenna

Peredur said:
Waite says that the tails "signify the animal nature..." If the fire indicates desire and the tail on the woman has a pomegranate which symbolizes plenty (or fertility), this would make sense.
Bob
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how about the part where both of them are chained to the devil's perch with the guy holding out his hand ( his gesture seems like an invitation)?
 

Teheuti

Among other things, the torch pointed down is solar light at its weakest - at the winter solstice - entry into Capricorn (which corresponds to the card in the GD tradition).

The grapes (fruit and seeds) are the generative powers of nature on the material plane. As wine they represent liquid (water element) which counterbalances the fiery lust on the other side.

In _Mysteries of Magic_ (a compilation of Levi's writings by Waite), you'll find:
"There exists a force in Nature [called the Astral Light or Universal Agent]. . . . When it produces radiance it is called light. It is that substance which was created by God before all else when He said: Let there be light. . . . It is the devil of exoteric dogmatism, and is really the blind force which souls must conquer, in order to detach themselves from the chains of earth; for if their will do not free them from its fatal attraction, they will be absorbed in the current by the same power which first produced them, and will return to the central and eternal fire."

Mary
 
cups and conception The two bald men