Thoth Hierophant and hexapentagrams

[gregory]

About the Hierophant.

I have been looking at the Thoth Hierophant this week, and reading up on him. I am now terminally baffled.

Duquette refers to the union of the Hexagram and the Pentagram (as macrocosm and microcosm and all that) – the former, he says, encompassing the Hierophant’s whole body.

I CANNOT SEE anything in there with 6 points. I see the child in a Pentagram; the Scarlet Woman in an inverted one, and the whole lot of him and both of them inside a big one with the bottom two points going off the card. Snuffin is on Duquette's side and sees a hexagram; Banzhaf says the biggest one is a pentagram, which is what I see.

I have appealed to others, and I wonder if Frieda did her card and then Crowley didn’t change his text to match – or didn’t even look at the card in terms of his text, maybe ? – The BoT says

…the oriel is diaphanous; before the Manifestor of the Mystery is a hexagram representing the macrocosm. In its centre is a pentagram, representing a dancing male child.

Confused, I appealed for help:

Duquette and Snuffin aren't looking at the card. They are reading what Crowley wrote, and seeing what they think should be there.

I see the same as you. Yes, three. The kid fills the third, tiniest, the middle one is upside down, and the biggest has two extended points going off the bottom.

This isn't unusual. There are a number of cards where the description in the book doesn't match the reality. This is because there were lots of versions of cards, and whole sections of the book were written before cards were drawn, they describe what Crowley intended, not what actually happened.

The surprising thing is that Duquette and Snuffin don't seem to be able to see what they are looking at it.

and

To me it's clear the largest star is a hexagram from the angle of its corners and lines, but the bottom points run off the edge so you can't see them to be certain. But it's a fair call that the entire point of the Hierophant is its the pin (Vau) which joins the macro (6) to the micro (5), so I think we can believe them

This latter is not at all clear to me.
So someone then coloured in the various pentagrams for me. These are attached.

The first one is the lines on the card.

The second has the bottom points extended till they almost touch.

The third is the closest I can get to a hexagram.

As you see - the last has to use a line that isn't there on the card - or not that I can see...

What do others think ?

 

[Fianic]

That big star IS a hexagram. Just that the Hierophant and the other figures are in front of it so you can't see the bottom half.

Actually scratch that, I see what you mean. I had to go back to the original to see what those three pictures you posted was on about...

Perhaps if you added the sword of Aphrodite as the 6th point? albeit a small one.

 

[gregory]

But how would that join to the rest ?

Here's the card without the colouring...

www.albideuter.de/assets/images/Crowley_-_V_-_Der_Hohepriester.jpg

Now - HOW would that make a hexagram that actually appears on the card ?

 

[Fianic]

The sword is right in between the bottom two points of the large "pentagram", where you'd imagine the bottom middle point of a hexagram to be.

I know it's stretching it a bit to make a hexagram but it kind of works .

 

[gregory]

Only if you ignore the fact that there is no line, as there is with the others, and that the lines there ARE go right off the card....

 

[Laura Borealis]

I only see five-pointed stars. There's no hexagram. I can kinda see what Fianic is saying about the sword, but I don't think it's anything. If Frieda Harris had meant there to be a hexagram she'd have painted one.

I think the person you consulted with is correct -- DuQuette and Snuffin are just seeing what they expect to see.

 

[gregory]

I only see five-pointed stars. There's no hexagram. I can kinda see what Fianic is saying about the sword, but I don't think it's anything. If Frieda Harris had meant there to be a hexagram she'd have painted one.

I think the person you consulted with is correct -- DuQuette and Snuffin are just seeing what they expect to see.

ONE person I consulted. The other thinks it's OK ! I await their arrival in this thread

 

[Laura Borealis]

The one who said,

To me it's clear the largest star is a hexagram from the angle of its corners and lines, but the bottom points run off the edge so you can't see them to be certain. But it's a fair call that the entire point of the Hierophant is its the pin (Vau) which joins the macro (6) to the micro (5), so I think we can believe them

??

I think what they're seeing is something like this (attached) which ignores the lines that cross in front of the sword. I see it as the big five-pointed star with the really long bottom points, myself... But I'll be glad to see what they say

 

[gregory]

Someone else has tried. It doesn't WORK for me, it just doesn't. Every single way of trying to force a hexagram has to cheat. It isn't THERE.

 

[gregory]

The one who said,


??

I think what they're seeing is something like this (attached) which ignores the lines that cross in front of the sword. I see it as the big five-pointed star with the really long bottom points, myself... But I'll be glad to see what they say

ACTUALLY yours is the only POSSIBLE hexagram I can ALMOST buy into....