why bother with qabalistic numbers?

pseudonim

for that matter the tree of life?

it seems to me an afterthought.

after the astrological and astronomical symbolism

after the Egyptian symbolism

after all the Golden Dawn symbols in the cards.

it seems to me that the sephiroth is nothing but a coincidence that was applied "because it fit."

the symbolism on the cards and their meaning is what seems to be most important. that is the story of the book of thoth. ancient numerology seems to do nothing but reinforce whats already there.

posted out of arrogance with splendor,

pseudonim
 

pseudonim

SOMEBODY challenge me.

i need mental stimulation, and refuting years of research is the first step.
 

Debra

Wait for the time zones to align. ;)
 

Eeviee

...because it's a core teaching in the Order of The Golden Dawn, or because it's a corner-stone to all of esoteric mysteries?
 

pseudonim

...because it's a core teaching in the Order of The Golden Dawn, or because it's a corner-stone to all of esoteric mysteries?

i will argue to the grave that esoteric symbolism trumps any "core teaching" on a practical level w/r/t the thoth tarot.

even crowley spends more time on the symbolism than the qabalastic garbage he reinforces the symbolism with.
 

Maskelyne

Tarot cards were originally playing cards, so ALL divinitory uses are afterthoughts. There are those who will read only with Marseille-type decks precisely to avoid all the occult claptrap that's been piled onto the cards.

However, even before the tarot, people were divining with cards, and associating meanings to them. Aside from the medieval symbology of the traditional trumps and courts, there is no innate meaning in the cards. All the rest, including whatever numerological system you choose to read the pip cards with, was made up and tacked on. Part of the joy of tarot is its ability to carry all these divinitory/narrative/occult/philosophical/etc. meanings.

The Golden Dawn seized on this ability to take on layers of meaning and made the tarot, as re-designed by Mathers, a centerpiece of their system. Most of this added meaning was not explicit in their deck, however; the cards being more of a mnemonic for teachings that were revealed through other means. They and earlier occultists made all sorts of bogus claims of ancient lineage for the tarot and other teachings, to inspire awe in their initiates. on the spiritual level you could make the claim that they were following paths to enlightenment that have been known since time immemorial, but on a mundane, historical level these claims are 99% hooey: they just made that stuff up. Not to say it isn't true, but it's certainly not factual.

Crowley opted to create a more explicit deck, making the basic occult symbolism the primary focus of the illustrations, and planting hints of deeper mysteries besides. His deck and a number that have followed it use the tarot as a textbook of occult philosophy. The Qabalah is a central part of that. Assigning the pips to the sephiroth was a no-brainer. As for the coincidence factor, ten being the count of our fingers, it's a fundamental number in all human cultures. The alignment of the 22 majors with the 22 paths and Hebrew letters does strike me as more of a coincidence, especially since the original scheme was 21 trumps (3x7) plus the Fool.

There are places where it seems to me also that there is something of a forced fit to the added meanings. Despite having a fair knowledge of astrology, I've never found much value in the astrological attributions that the Golden Dawn added to the cards. With the Qabalah though, I find the Thoth deck has been a great aid in learning the Tree of Life and associated concepts. And that's the real point - the additions are not there to help you read the cards, the cards are there to help you learn the additions.
 

pseudonim

Tarot cards were originally playing cards, so ALL divinitory uses are afterthoughts. There are those who will read only with Marseille-type decks precisely to avoid all the occult claptrap that's been piled onto the cards.

However, even before the tarot, people were divining with cards, and associating meanings to them. Aside from the medieval symbology of the traditional trumps and courts, there is no innate meaning in the cards. All the rest, including whatever numerological system you choose to read the pip cards with, was made up and tacked on. Part of the joy of tarot is its ability to carry all these divinitory/narrative/occult/philosophical/etc. meanings.

The Golden Dawn seized on this ability to take on layers of meaning and made the tarot, as re-designed by Mathers, a centerpiece of their system. Most of this added meaning was not explicit in their deck, however; the cards being more of a mnemonic for teachings that were revealed through other means. They and earlier occultists made all sorts of bogus claims of ancient lineage for the tarot and other teachings, to inspire awe in their initiates. on the spiritual level you could make the claim that they were following paths to enlightenment that have been known since time immemorial, but on a mundane, historical level these claims are 99% hooey: they just made that stuff up. Not to say it isn't true, but it's certainly not factual.

Crowley opted to create a more explicit deck, making the basic occult symbolism the primary focus of the illustrations, and planting hints of deeper mysteries besides. His deck and a number that have followed it use the tarot as a textbook of occult philosophy. The Qabalah is a central part of that. Assigning the pips to the sephiroth was a no-brainer. As for the coincidence factor, ten being the count of our fingers, it's a fundamental number in all human cultures. The alignment of the 22 majors with the 22 paths and Hebrew letters does strike me as more of a coincidence, especially since the original scheme was 21 trumps (3x7) plus the Fool.

There are places where it seems to me also that there is something of a forced fit to the added meanings. Despite having a fair knowledge of astrology, I've never found much value in the astrological attributions that the Golden Dawn added to the cards. With the Qabalah though, I find the Thoth deck has been a great aid in learning the Tree of Life and associated concepts. And that's the real point - the additions are not there to help you read the cards, the cards are there to help you learn the additions.

but this really means nothing. im sorry for your long-winded response, but it means nothing.

the only thing that matters with the thoth deck is the symbolism, not the attributions later applied by mystics and academics of the occult. im sorry that your post was in vein
 

Maskelyne

the only thing that matters with the thoth deck is the symbolism, not the attributions later applied by mystics and academics of the occult. im sorry that your post was in vein
What later attributions are you referring to? Certainly not the Qabalistic system you referred to in your initial post, which is quite explicit in both the design of the cards and Crowley's own writings, and plays a large role in the symbolism in the deck. Or do you want to separate the deck from the intentions of its creators?
 

pseudonim

What later attributions are you referring to? Certainly not the Qabalistic system you referred to in your initial post, which is quite explicit in both the design of the cards and Crowley's own writings, and plays a large role in the symbolism in the deck. Or do you want to separate the deck from the intentions of its creators?

i wish to tear down what has been and recreate what is to be