Can Tarot really foretell the Future ?

[Teheuti]

Are you actually praising the merits of self-delusion ?

Not praising exactly, although in some cases, yes. Rather saying that it's what people do: it IS. It's a core part of what makes us human and not plants or animals. We can't escape it, but we can learn to understand the process more and how it works both for and against us.

At times we benefit greatly from what Coleridge famously termed "a willing suspension of disbelief." But it goes far beyond that. We live in both a 'real' and an 'imaginal' world (to say nothing of the many variations on these and subcategories delineated by shamans and mystics) and each can affect the other.

 

[Nikita_]

Not praising exactly, although in some cases, yes. Rather saying that it's what people do: it is. It's a core part of what makes us human and not plants or animals. We can't escape it, but we can learn to understand the process more and how it works both for and against us.

You gave an extreme example, and in that case, maybe, as it was a matter of survival, it was good that they were given hope....certainly, very happy people with wonderful, fulfilling lives don't usually go to fortune -tellers....often, querents are people who feel that anything they could be told would be an improvement on their current situation....
I have a friend who has been in love with this guy for about 15 years. She's an intelligent woman in most matters, but where her love life is concerned, she acts and thinks like a brainless 12 year-old. She believes in tarot very much, and for many years she went to readers who gave her false hopes about this guy, while it was obvious she never had a chance in hell with him. Of course, every time she went to see a tarot reader who told her he loved her-he never even made a move on her, never showed any interest-she was extatic, over the moon, even euphoric. Until the next reality check, and then a new reader, and so on. When I began to read for her, I told her immediately to drop it, that it was leading nowhere, and she was throwing her life away. Of course she hated me, and for a long time, she refused to listen. She has thrown 15 years of her life-her youth, basically-after a delusional fantasy. And I am not saying it's the readers' fault; but seriously, do you think they did her a good service ? I don't believe so.

 

[Teheuti]

You gave an extreme example, and in that case, maybe, as it was a matter of survival, it was good that they were given hope....certainly, very happy people with wonderful, fulfilling lives don't usually go to fortune -tellers....often, querents are people who feel that anything they could be told would be an improvement on their current situation....
I have a friend who has been in love with this guy for about 15 years. She's an intelligent woman in most matters, but where her love life is concerned, she acts and thinks like a brainless 12 year-old. She believes in tarot very much, and for many years she went to readers who gave her false hopes about this guy, while it was obvious she never had a chance in hell with him. Of course, every time she went to see a tarot reader who told her he loved her-he never even made a move on her, never showed any interest-she was extatic, over the moon, even euphoric. Until the next reality check, and then a new reader, and so on. When I began to read for her, I told her immediately to drop it, that it was leading nowhere, and she was throwing her life away. Of course she hated me, and for a long time, she refused to listen. She has thrown 15 years of her life-her youth, basically-after a delusional fantasy. And I am not saying it's the readers' fault; but seriously, do you think they did her a good service ? I don't believe so.

Your example points out why there are no simple answers. If you'd look at "Mistakes Were Made" (or even read the book description and a few comments) - you'll see I'm not advocating that Tarot readers feed a person's delusion. Essentially, we can all point out something done by bad readers. But how many readers at a conference of 500 would put themselves in that category? What if all those earlier readers were getting cards that said that he loves her? Could there be something going on on another plane of experience?

As readers, we don't see our own fallabilities easily, but can learn to do better. We can learn to evaluate ourselves, recognize our own biases(etc) and to find what actually works best in the reading context.

BTW, the better question might be not "does he love her," but rather a realm of other questions including: What does she get out of clinging to the hope that he loves her, despite all concrete evidence that he doesn't? What does she really want? What does she most need to look at in her life right now? It sounds like she is deliberately using him (consciously or unconsciously) to gain or avoid something else. (An assumption on my part so I'll try to stay open to it being something totally different.)

 

[foolMoon]

In reality future does not exist. It only exists in our imagination. As soon as future comes to us, instantly it becomes present.

 

[ravenest]

What's interesting here is that I've come across three separate instances where people in concentration camps or the ghetto during WWII, when asked what was the greatest factor that helped them survive, replied it was the fortune tellers - even when the fortune teller was wrong (kept predicting the end would be soon)! I find this a profound truth, forged in the most horrendous fire. When facing the unknown, even a lie or an inaccurate prediction can be the key to unlimiting our potential.

I think this extends to ( and forgive me if I misinterpret) a basic human dynamic, what you outline is part of that dynamic.

For some it is hard to hear, as it seems to undermine belief ... but I often study things from an objective view; eg comparative religion, I study that , its a hard thing to study if you believe in the reality of a specific religion, but the study of comparative religion accept the validity of all religions. Some dont like that.

But in the spirit of that type of objective study, I have found this statement to be excellent at summing up what is at the core of belief, culture, religion and the process of hope you outline above. It is this statement from anthropologists John Monoghan and Peter Just; "It seems apparent that one thing religion or belief helps us do is deal with problems of human life that are significant, persistent, and intolerable. One important way in which religious beliefs accomplish this is by providing a set of ideas about how and why the world is put together that allows people to accommodate anxieties and deal with misfortune."

 

[Metafizzypop]

Can tarot foretell the future. Oh, boy yes, in my experience it sure can. It tells me the future without my even asking about it.

I haven't read this whole thread, but I did want to pop in with an experience I found relevant.

For the past several days I had been getting the Tower in a lot of my readings, no matter what I was reading about. The questions mostly were not about the future. They involved mostly the present. The Tower showed up all the time, and I couldn't figure out why.

This morning I walked out to my car and found two flat tires. It was diagnosed by a mechanic that they had been slashed with a knife.

Nice Tower moment. And it's not the first time I've had an experience like this, involving cards that come up over and over and then, later, I find out why. Yes, I definitely believe that tarot predicts the future, even when we don't ask about it. I think it is the inherent nature of tarot to do this. I think that sometimes when a card doesn't make sense in a reading, and it comes up over and over, that it's an indicator of things to come.

 

[Nikita_]

Your example points out why there are no simple answers. If you'd look at "Mistakes Were Made" (or even read the book description and a few comments) - you'll see I'm not advocating that Tarot readers feed a person's delusion. Essentially, we can all point out something done by bad readers. But how many readers at a conference of 500 would put themselves in that category? What if all those earlier readers were getting cards that said that he loves her? Could there be something going on on another plane of experience?

As readers, we don't see our own fallabilities easily, but can learn to do better. We can learn to evaluate ourselves, recognize our own biases(etc) and to find what actually works best in the reading context.

BTW, the better question might be not "does he love her," but rather a realm of other questions including: What does she get out of clinging to the hope that he loves her, despite all concrete evidence that he doesn't? What does she really want? What does she most need to look at in her life right now? It sounds like she is deliberately using him (consciously or unconsciously) to gain or avoid something else. (An assumption on my part so I'll try to stay open to it being something totally different.)

Many important points here. If you've read through this thread, you know that my view is that very often, it's not the reader's fault if the future is so hard to pin down. I'm not sure what you mean by " another plane of experience " though....a parallel universe ? The land of the things that could have been but weren't ?-not in THIS reality we live in, not in the here and now, which to me, is all that matters....
Of course as readers we can always improve, we can have biases, make mistakes....and in her case, psychology certainly played a huge role. She does have a very strong will, and the ability to bend people's words to mean what she wants-so I can very well imagine that that's what happened there, and this is another very big problem for readers-sometimes there are querents who you need to be very firm and even blunt with, or they will just refuse to get the message, but that's not the point....
All the questions about her you asked in your last paragraph, I have explored many times, and they belong to the realm of psichology and psychoanalyses, very little to do with magic here, really. It is not complicated, knowing her as I do now, what subconscious needs she was fulfilling by clinging to that dream....but my point was, we as readers should not encourage them.

 

[Nikita_]

In reality future does not exist. It only exists in our imagination. As soon as future comes to us, instantly it becomes present.

You might be right, I have never seen it like that, but I will consider it.

 

[Nikita_]

Can tarot foretell the future. Oh, boy yes, in my experience it sure can. It tells me the future without my even asking about it.

I haven't read this whole thread, but I did want to pop in with an experience I found relevant.

For the past several days I had been getting the Tower in a lot of my readings, no matter what I was reading about. The questions mostly were not about the future. They involved mostly the present. The Tower showed up all the time, and I couldn't figure out why.

This morning I walked out to my car and found two flat tires. It was diagnosed by a mechanic that they had been slashed with a knife.

Nice Tower moment. And it's not the first time I've had an experience like this, involving cards that come up over and over and then, later, I find out why. Yes, I definitely believe that tarot predicts the future, even when we don't ask about it. I think it is the inherent nature of tarot to do this. I think that sometimes when a card doesn't make sense in a reading, and it comes up over and over, that it's an indicator of things to come.

I completely agree with this. This is my experience as well....and if you red through the thread, you'll see that my real question is, how come tarot sometimes seems to foretell the future with incredible precision, and sometimes it doesn' t ? In other words, no reliability...in a way, it would be much easier to understand if it never did, foretell the future correctly...

 

[Farzon]

You gave an extreme example, and in that case, maybe, as it was a matter of survival, it was good that they were given hope....certainly, very happy people with wonderful, fulfilling lives don't usually go to fortune -tellers....often, querents are people who feel that anything they could be told would be an improvement on their current situation....
I have a friend who has been in love with this guy for about 15 years. She's an intelligent woman in most matters, but where her love life is concerned, she acts and thinks like a brainless 12 year-old. She believes in tarot very much, and for many years she went to readers who gave her false hopes about this guy, while it was obvious she never had a chance in hell with him. Of course, every time she went to see a tarot reader who told her he loved her-he never even made a move on her, never showed any interest-she was extatic, over the moon, even euphoric. Until the next reality check, and then a new reader, and so on. When I began to read for her, I told her immediately to drop it, that it was leading nowhere, and she was throwing her life away. Of course she hated me, and for a long time, she refused to listen. She has thrown 15 years of her life-her youth, basically-after a delusional fantasy. And I am not saying it's the readers' fault; but seriously, do you think they did her a good service ? I don't believe so.

Then were you not using the Tarot to strengthen your own point?

I've read Frankl's book years ago. It's very impressive but I think it's about a fundamental thing in life: hope.

I have experienced this dilemma myself more often than I would have liked to: is it always the right choice to tell the truth? Of there is no realistic chance for the better why not hold on to your hopes to the end and die happy instead of being crushed by harsh truths?

I have a friend myself who I used to tell the truth disregarding his feelings. He never woke up from his delusions but he lives well that way. He's more happy like this.