Can Tarot really foretell the Future ?

[Nikita_]

Then were you not using the Tarot to strengthen your own point?

I've read Frankl's book years ago. It's very impressive but I think it's about a fundamental thing in life: hope.

I have experienced this dilemma myself more often than I would have liked to: is it always the right choice to tell the truth? Of there is no realistic chance for the better why not hold on to your hopes to the end and die happy instead of being crushed by harsh truths?

I have a friend myself who I used to tell the truth disregarding his feelings. He never woke up from his delusions but he lives well that way. He's more happy like this.

It's a matter of points of view, and how we want to live our lives...do we want to live with our eyes open, seeing things for what they are, or on our own little cloud where everything is possible and beautiful, as if we were on drugs ? Yes, sometimes we need to hope against all odds, and believe in the impossible- it gives us energy, and makes us feel good...but at some point we will have to get back to earth, and it will be a nasty fall if we insist on blindly living a fantasy...
I personally think that truth has an intrinsic, huge value-second only to that of freedom, in my personal value system-and truth is also an instrument that makes us free....so yes, telling people the truth is always the right choice, and I wish I had been told the truth on many occasions, and I wasn't, by tarot readers and in general....of course, we have to use tact and empathy when telling people unpleasant truths, but there is a huge difference between hope and unfounded hope....

 

[Grizabella]

I tried to search back to where Viktor Frankel's Man's Search for Meaning was brought up so I could join the conversation with some kind of coherence about it but I can't find it yet. I lost track of this thread for a few days but it looks like I should have stuck with it. It's become very interesting.

Man's Search for Meaning was a book he wrote about why certain people survived the concentrations camps during WWII when the conditions were the same for them all and it was a mystery to him--he wondered why these particular people survived and others didn't since conditions were the same for all. The conclusion he came to was that the people who survived were the ones who found meaning in their own lives. They felt they had some reason they were on earth and that kept them going forward and staying alive. It wasn't hope because there wasn't any cause for hope in that place. It was the sense that they were in this life for a reason bigger than just themselves. A drive to survive because they felt like they had a greater purpose than just themselves. They felt they had to survive because God had something important they had to survive FOR, something that was more than just the desire to live, because some felt death would be a release BUT that they felt this greater purpose they felt they had to serve.

I read this book after I got to the women's refuge in 1985 and I understood what he was saying because that's the reason I survived, too, when my life was tentative for one reason or another. In today's world, the term is "survivor personality" and that's what my counsellor said I am or have or however you'd say it.

Now back on topic, about whether the cards can tell the future. I have absolutely no doubt of it. And if you want to get technical, no matter what you say about what you see in the cards, you are predicting the future even if you think you're only giving someone advice from the cards about what they should do next in whatever situation they're in. By giving that advice, you're predicting that if they follow it, X will happen. And that's the future, and that's what fortune-telling is. No getting around it.

Now I'm going to go try to catch up on the thread.

 

[Farzon]

I tried to search back to where Viktor Frankel's Man's Search for Meaning was brought up so I could join the conversation with some kind of coherence about it but I can't find it yet. I lost track of this thread for a few days but it looks like I should have stuck with it. It's become very interesting.

Man's Search for Meaning was a book he wrote about why certain people survived the concentrations camps during WWII when the conditions were the same for them all and it was a mystery to him--he wondered why these particular people survived and others didn't since conditions were the same for all. The conclusion he came to was that the people who survived were the ones who found meaning in their own lives. They felt they had some reason they were on earth and that kept them going forward and staying alive. It wasn't hope because there wasn't any cause for hope in that place. It was the sense that they were in this life for a reason bigger than just themselves. A drive to survive because they felt like they had a greater purpose than just themselves. They felt they had to survive because God had something important they had to survive FOR, something that was more than just the desire to live, because some felt death would be a release BUT that they felt this greater purpose they felt they had to serve.

I read this book after I got to the women's refuge in 1985 and I understood what he was saying because that's the reason I survived, too, when my life was tentative for one reason or another. In today's world, the term is "survivor personality" and that's what my counsellor said I am or have or however you'd say it.

Now back on topic, about whether the cards can tell the future. I have absolutely no doubt of it. And if you want to get technical, no matter what you say about what you see in the cards, you are predicting the future even if you think you're only giving someone advice from the cards about what they should do next in whatever situation they're in. By giving that advice, you're predicting that if they follow it, X will happen. And that's the future, and that's what fortune-telling is. No getting around it.

Now I'm going to go try to catch up on the thread.

You're right of course, it's mostly about meaning.
Frankl's whole teachings build up on meaning as a fundament for a happy life.
We were talking about Frankl's point with the fortune tellers....

What I'm trying to say is, isn't hope a reason to live, too? Even if it's a "false" hope? Why not live for an impossible dream? But I'm going off-topic here.
And I have to read Frankl once again.

 

[Nikita_]

By giving that advice, you're predicting that if they follow it, X will happen. And that's the future, and that's what fortune-telling is. No getting around it.

What are you saying exactly ? Are you serious ? Or am I missing something ? If you predict that if they follow it, x will happen ? Well, congratulations, you've certainly got faith in your abilities....so, you can not only predict an event, but make it happen ??

 

[Nikita_]

You're right of course, it's mostly about meaning.
Frankl's whole teachings build up on meaning as a fundament for a happy life.
We were talking about Frankl's point with the fortune tellers....

What I'm trying to say is, isn't hope a reason to live, too? Even if it's a "false" hope? Why not live for an impossible dream? But I'm going off-topic here.
And I have to read Frankl once again.

What you said before reminded me of a conversation I once had with this woman I mentioned, who wasted her life after this guy. I was trying to make her have a more realistic approach to life, for her own good, and at one point she said something that made my hair stand on end. She more or less said that the only reality that matters is the one we have in our minds, and if we want things to be a certain way, and strongly believe that they are, than they really are that way...WELL, NO, ACTUALLY !!!! There is an objective reality out there, whether we like it or not, whether we choose to pretend it's not there or not !!! The fact that you believe that a guy is in love with you for 15 years, doesn't make him fall in love with you ! At all !! And same for everything else !
As for Frankl's theory on survivors, I really don't want to get into this debate, not only because it's off topic, but too sensitive and delicate to deal with here....his theory is certainly valid and fascinating, but there are others....and I don't think, however, that he meant the prisoners in concentration camps were living a fantasy....I don't think what he was saying has anything to to with what we are discussing here, to be honest.

 

[Farzon]

What you said before reminded me of a conversation I once had with this woman I mentioned, who wasted her life after this guy. I was trying to make her have a more realistic approach to life, for her own good, and at one point she said something that made my hair stand on end. She more or less said that the only reality that matters is the one we have in our minds, and if we want things to be a certain way, and strongly believe that they are, than they really are that way...WELL, NO, ACTUALLY !!!! There is an objective reality out there, whether we like it or not, whether we choose to pretend it's not there or not !!! The fact that you believe that a guy is in love with you for 15 years, doesn't make him fall in love with you ! At all !! And same for everything else !
As for Frankl's theory on survivors, I really don't want to get into this debate, not only because it's off topic, but too sensitive and delicate to deal with here....his theory is certainly valid and fascinating, but there are others....and I don't think, however, that he meant the prisoners in concentration camps were living a fantasy....I don't think what he was saying has anything to to with what we are discussing here, to be honest.

Check back Teheuti's comment on the fortune tellers in the camps. I'll try to find the chapter in question myself. (if I only new where the book is on my shelf [emoji15] )

Your point about realty may be true but no one can really know the objective truth, because no one of us is an objective being. As I said, I tried to live this ideal of truth above all for quite a long time, only to recognize that there are people who are not made to face reality. Trying to make them face it can be very destructive.

I was not saying that believing in something makes it come true - we have to set the according actions when facing the possibilities. Showing these possibilities is part of what Tarot can do, of how Tarot can predict the future.

 

[Aidan]

For some reason i cant quote the nikitas post... Bad connection maybe. Ill try to edit my post later.
Its about that part with an objective reality, and that we cant change it. Well, of course there are thing that we cant force to happen, but our attitude can change a lot indeed. If someone who is shy starts to modify his bodylanguage, he changes not only how others see him. He changes his hormones as well, the level of testosteron will rise, while that of cortisol will sink. (discovered by Amy Cuddy)
So by changing himself, will he not change what his life as well, since there are so many things depending on how we are perceived by others?
My point is: of course things are in a certain way, but by beliving that they could be different, we can change them. Just accepting an unpleasent truth sometimes limits our possibilities.
What i said about body language, i know from personal experience long before these studies i mentioned existed. Thats why i cant go along with your deterministic point of view.

 

[Nikita_]

Check back Teheuti's comment on the fortune tellers in the camps. I'll try to find the chapter in question myself. (if I only new where the book is on my shelf [emoji15] )

Your point about realty may be true but no one can really know the objective truth, because no one of us is an objective being. As I said, I tried to live this ideal of truth above all for quite a long time, only to recognize that there are people who are not made to face reality. Trying to make them face it can be very destructive.

I was not saying that believing in something makes it come true - we have to set the according actions when facing the possibilities. Showing these possibilities is part of what Tarot can do, of how Tarot can predict the future.

Yes, I get the connection about fortune-tellers in the camps, but I do think we are stretching the point; the reality of concentration camps, though unfortunately not unique in the history of mankind, is certainly an exceptional situation, and I think making a parallel between that and the average reading, where someone asks will we marry and be happy, is neither useful nor appropriate. In ordinary, every day readings, people who are in impossible situations more often than not have the possibility to move on if they really want to, and I believe they should be encouraged to do so ....And of course there are people who will continue to live in their own world, no matter what anyone tells them but I do think that our job is to try and open their eyes anyway on a more OBJECTIVE REALITY. And, yes, that concept is not an absolute either, but again, the fact that we will never be completely objective beings, doesn't mean, in my opinion, that it's OK to mistake aeroplanes for flying elephants and happily go through life refusing to see that they are aeroplanes.

 

[Nikita_]

For some reason i cant quote the nikitas post... Bad connection maybe. Ill try to edit my post later.
Its about that part with an objective reality, and that we cant change it. Well, of course there are thing that we cant force to happen, but our attitude can change a lot indeed. If someone who is shy starts to modify his bodylanguage, he changes not only how others see him. He changes his hormones as well, the level of testosteron will rise, while that of cortisol will sink. (discovered by Amy Cuddy)
So by changing himself, will he not change what his life as well, since there are so many things depending on how we are perceived by others?
My point is: of course things are in a certain way, but by beliving that they could be different, we can change them. Just accepting an unpleasent truth sometimes limits our possibilities.
What i said about body language, i know from personal experience long before these studies i mentioned existed. Thats why i cant go along with your deterministic point of view.

Of course you can change yourself, but you can't change others....that's the whole point....you have to learn to accept the things outside yourself that you cannot change, because you do not have the power to change them like you can't change somebody else's feelings, you can't make someone fall in love with you...and the sooner you come to terms with that, the sooner you can move on and try something that maybe WILL work...rather than dissipate energy after a doomed project....

 

[Farzon]

Yes, I get the connection about fortune-tellers in the camps, but I do think we are stretching the point; the reality of concentration camps, though unfortunately not unique in the history of mankind, is certainly an exceptional situation, and I think making a parallel between that and the average reading, where someone asks will we marry and be happy, is neither useful nor appropriate. In ordinary, every day readings, people who are in impossible situations more often than not have the possibility to move on if they really want to, and I believe they should be encouraged to do so ....And of course there are people who will continue to live in their own world, no matter what anyone tells them but I do think that our job is to try and open their eyes anyway on a more OBJECTIVE REALITY. And, yes, that concept is not an absolute either, but again, the fact that we will never be completely objective beings, doesn't mean, in my opinion, that it's OK to mistake aeroplanes for flying elephants and happily go through life refusing to see that they are aeroplanes.

This will be my last post about Viktor Frankl, since we are going way off-topic here; but you have to make this parallel because Frankl's experience in the camp influenced his approach to life heavily and thus his whole system of logotherapy - which is not about facing a harsh, avoided truth but about finding meaning in life - through this whole thread we can see this polarity between psychoanalysis and logotherapy (that sometimes the cards show us what we need to see at that time) actually! [emoji2]