Pluto

Minderwiz

Ronia said:
Hm, I'm a Scorpio and honestly, I relate much more to Pluto than to Mars. LOL

On a more serious note, I only recently found the strength to look on Astro.com the day when my father died (I was a child then) and I had double conjunction Sun over natal Pluto (8th house) and Pluto over natal Sun.

Well Mars rulership of Scorpio does not rest on affinity (a modern error) it depends of the order of planets, and signs in relationship to the Sun in Leo and the Moon in Cancer - Mars squares the Moon from Aries and the Sun from Scorpio - which is why it is seen as the Lesser Malefic or why the square is seen to be a hard aspect, with something of the nature of Mars. Whether or not Pluto has any affinity to Scorpio has nothing to do with rulership.


It's difficult to comment on your second point as I don't have the chart. However if you were a child at the time, then you were born with your natal Sun conjunct or near conjunct to Pluto. It seems that your father died around the time of your birthday (and I can well understand the upset that caused, as my father died shortly after my own birthday and I was an adult but still found the whole experience traumatic).

How close are the conjunctions?
 

Ronia

No, my natal Pluto is about 20 degrees from my Sun/Uranus natal conjunction, Pluto in the 8th but close to the cusp with the 9th, the other two in the 9th house.

My father died when I was a teen although in the beginning of these teen years, I checked the chart again now, the transiting Sun is about 4 degrees from natal Pluto, and is accompanied by transiting Moon and Mars, all three together are on top of the natal Pluto in the 8th.

The natal Pluto is a bit further, looks like 7-8 degrees from the natal Sun/Uranus conjunction in the 9th.

I use the placidus house system on Astrodienst, if that matters.

The other planets were: transiting Saturn, Uranus conjunct in the 12th (empty house), opposing transiting Jupiter/Chiron in the 6th (no interaction with natal planets here either).
 

siren85

Even though astronomers want to de-classify Pluto as a planet, that doesn't take away from its astrological significance. It is still one of strongest planets in astrology, despite its size; anyone who has gone through a Pluto transit will tell you this. When transit Pluto recently conjuncted my natal Venus/Mars, it was one of the most intense, difficult, and painful periods of my life. A Pluto transit will often be felt more intensely than any other transit. An astrologer once likened it to 'getting a root canal without novacaine'. It is working hard to get all of those negative, unhealthy behavior patterns out of you so you can transform, be reborn, and move on with your life. Very intense, quick change... may be incredibably painful at the time, but no other transit will transform you more in the end.

Btw, I have natal Pluto conjunct my Scorpio Ascendant, so I have always felt Pluto's energy strongly in my life. Constant transforming, identity crisis', dying and being reborn... its exhausting! :|
 

Minderwiz

Ronia said:
.My father died when I was a teen although in the beginning of these teen years, I checked the chart again now, the transiting Sun is about 4 degrees from natal Pluto, and is accompanied by transiting Moon and Mars, all three together are on top of the natal Pluto in the 8th.

The natal Pluto is a bit further, looks like 7-8 degrees from the natal Sun/Uranus conjunction in the 9th.

Well you do said 'child' in the previous post so I dangerously assumed you were around 10 at most and probably younger. However 4 degrees, let alone 7-8 degrees, is too wide an orb to use for a Pluto conjunction. Pluto takes 246 years to complete a zodiacal transit, that's an average of just over 8 months per degree. A separation of 4 degrees equates to 2 years 8 months - any aspect that will not perfect for another two and a half years cannot really be treated as relevant (unless you are a Pluto addict). Clearly 7-8 degrees is around 5 years - such a range just can't be taken as relevant for the events on one particular day or one particular month. even one particular year falls outside both of your ranges.

Now I've taken averages there and clearly there must be times when Pluto is moving faster than average and is not interrupted by retrogade periods and it's times faster in Scorpio than it is in Taurus (because of its exaggerated orbit) Even so it takes 11 years to move through Scorpio, so 4 degrees there equates to more than a year.


For an event such as this, I'd expect more than simple transit evidence any way - now without the chart I can't identify that and indeed I'd probably want your chart and your father's.

siren85 said:
It is still one of strongest planets in astrology, despite its size; anyone who has gone through a Pluto transit will tell you this.

Well I've experienced a number of Pluto transits in 63 years, including conjunctions to Saturn, Ascendant, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, Neptune, Chiron, and squares to Moon, Mars and Uranus and to be honest NONE of them struck me as any where near the intensity of a Saturn or Mars transit - but as I said above, transits are a fairly weak Astrological event and I'd want to look for more substantial evidence.

Now I'm not saying that I won't find people who claim that they have not had tough Pluto transits (though whether Pluto is the only factor or even a factor at all requires a close examination) but to claim that everyone who has had a Pluto transit will be hit hard is just not the case. My point is that we need a proper investigation not simply the reassertion of modern 'myths' as fact. If events can be explained without reference to Pluto then it calls into question whether Pluto has Astrological significance - that is the test and the investigation that needs to be carried out and I'm willing to accept that such an investigation might well show some clear Pluto effect - but at least that would give hard supportive evidence and would advance Astrology.
 

Ronia

Ah, I learned something again, thank you! Yes, of course, it takes so long for Pluto to move, I had completely forgotten this. Not that I'm any astrologer, just trying to learn and catch a hint here and there. When I saw this double placement I thought Sun-male authority and Pluto-death among the other things, so I connected both things. But yes, it would be true for years!

I've been through a couple of Pluto transits too. It's currently transiting my 12th house and has been there for too long! There are years when I don't feel it but there are times when it's tough but as Minderwiz said, it's usually triggered by an additional element. For example, Saturn who is my chart ruler is currently conjunct both Pluto and Mercury in my 8th house and with transiting Pluto in the 12th I've been through hell of a cleaning at corners of my mind I wish I had never visited again. :(

At the same time, with the fastest planets who enter configurations with Pluto at least once a year, I haven't noticed any significant changes. It's the heavier ones, the slower that cause me to change and dig deep.
 

siren85

Minderwiz said:
Well I've experienced a number of Pluto transits in 63 years, including conjunctions to Saturn, Ascendant, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, Neptune, Chiron, and squares to Moon, Mars and Uranus and to be honest NONE of them struck me as any where near the intensity of a Saturn or Mars transit - but as I said above, transits are a fairly weak Astrological event and I'd want to look for more substantial evidence.

Now I'm not saying that I won't find people who claim that they have not had tough Pluto transits (though whether Pluto is the only factor or even a factor at all requires a close examination) but to claim that everyone who has had a Pluto transit will be hit hard is just not the case. My point is that we need a proper investigation not simply the reassertion of modern 'myths' as fact. If events can be explained without reference to Pluto then it calls into question whether Pluto has Astrological significance - that is the test and the investigation that needs to be carried out and I'm willing to accept that such an investigation might well show some clear Pluto effect - but at least that would give hard supportive evidence and would advance Astrology.

Ok, but I am not the only one saying this. Many, many astrologers including Stephen Forrest, Robert Hand, Donna Cunningham, Liz Greene, ect. have talked about the intensity of Pluto in astrology and in transits. So it goes the other way too... while YOU personally may believe Saturn transits are stronger for you, Pluto transits are stronger for alot of people as well. If you have a particular theme that strongly figures in your chart, say if pisces or neptune is strong, then you may tend to feel neptune transits more strongly because you are more accustomed to that energy. But a general consensus of many astrologers is that pluto transits are usually felt strongly in one way or another.
 

AmethystEyes

Wow Pluto I can definitely see its affect in many birth charts.
 

dadsnook2000

Experience says . . .

My experience has indicated that any one planet may or may not be important or even an influence in a given chart. My natal Pluto has no direct aspect relationship to the other planets. I don't seem to find Pluto transits leaving any footprints on my back.

On the other hand, I clearly remember several Saturn transits and the periods of time following them. But, Saturn is part of a significant complex in my chart. Everyone's chart is different, everyone interacts with their planets in different ways.

As Minderwiz had noted, simplicity and clarity of practice depends upon having a cohesive approach to the tools you choose and the manner in which you use them. That comes from either experience or from following the experience of another whom you admire and wish to follow. I advocate getting your own experience and finding what works best for you. Forget about the science, go for the experience. Read, read, read. Do charts, more charts and many more charts. Today, I have done about 30. All for Alan Turing, the englishman who broke the Enigma code machine used by the Germans in World War II. After the war he was badly treated and committed suicide. The country owed him an immense debt of gratitude for his brilliant work. He received an apology a couple of years ago and now has a modest monument erected to honor his life's work in both the war effort and in the years following. Even the computers we use today are based on his mathematical work. Dave
 

Minderwiz

Oddly enough, Pluto has major significance for the philosophy of Astrology. Before the seventeenth century, the basis of Astrology was clear and virtually universally agreed. A body gained Astrological significance through three qualities - firstly its visibility, (much of the language of Astrology is still based on 'seeing' or 'viewing' - such as the continued use of the term 'aspect');secondly on the extent to which it moves (planets are generally taken as more significant than 'fixed' stars - though the tradition gives much more importance to fixed stars than the modern approach) and lastly brightness or luminosity - The Sun and Moon as the brightest visible bodies are the most important, followed by Venus and Jupiter and then Mars, Saturn and Mercury. Similarly the brightest stars on or near the ecliptic are seen as more important than dim stars. This philosophy also encompassed meteors and comets, seen as highly, if only temporarily, important bodies.

Now with the development of the telescope, this philosophy came to be challenged. Galileo's discovery of the moon's of Jupiter was the first revelation that there were bodies which existed but were not visible with the naked eye - there was more to creation than what we could see unaided.

The identification of Uranus as a planet (rather than a very dim star, which had occasionally been seen even in classical times) added an eighth planet, less than 100 years later there was a ninth, in Neptune (but requiring a more powerful telescope in order to see it and never visible to the naked eye).

Now both Uranus and Neptune are gas giants, so one might begin to amend the philosophy of Astrology by allowing for an additional force - gravity - and try and blend in with Newtonian (and later Einsteinian) physics.

But Pluto is not a gas giant - it's much, much smaller even in its original grossly overestimated size it was only considered about the same size as Earth. On latest data, Pluto is just over two thirds the size of Mercury and has a minimum distance from Earth of 4.28 BILLION km, compared to Mercury's 77.3 MILLION km - so on the basis of gravitational force Pluto is insignificant compared to Mercury. BUT, as Dave has posted earlier - many Astrologers will argue that size (and presumably distance) doesn't matter. But if that is the case - what does?

The Astronomical misclassification of Pluto, delayed the recognition and understanding of our nature of the solar system by 50 years - Astronomers now recognise that Pluto was the first of a new type of body - now referred to as plutoids. Pluto has caused Astronomers to rethink their knowledge and understanding.

In the same way, I think that Astrologers need to rethink - simply asserting that Pluto is important is not enough - we need a reason why. The importance lies not just for Pluto but for a host of other bodies that are continually being identified and categorised. Why is Pluto more important than Charon or Eris or any of the other bodies out there? There may be a reason for it's importance and we really do need to look. If size and distance don't matter, then how can we say that Pluto has a major effect - the effects (if real) might be down to bodies that we as yet don't know about or indeed to specks of cosmic dust.

Is human awareness a factor? Are the intense effects of Pluto transits referred to by siren85 may be some kind of psychosomatic effect - people expect an intense transit and so they get one - but no less 'real' for them.

Is it speed - the slower the pace the greater the effect, irrespective of size and distance - in which case why are the 'fixed' stars (which actually move 1 degree per 72 years, as seen from Earth) even more powerful - especially when there are far more of them than plutoids.

Or do we simply say, we don't know but we'll take it as a fact because that's our current Astrological view. Indeed in his book on Sports Astrology the traditional Astrologer, John Frawley, actually reports a Pluto effect - he says he doesn't know why it should happen because he can't find it in other branches of Astrology but that he accepts it for practical purposes.

That might practically work but it opens the door to chaos - any and every body discovered out in the Kuyper Belt must have an equal claim to such importance and there are hundreds if not thousands of them.

So why is Pluto more important than Mercury and why is Pluto more important than Eris? - The answers to both may be in Pluto's favour but how do we proceed?
 

NamasteIndia

Thats very important information Minderwiz about Pluto
Vedic astrology never counts pluto.
Maybe the Rishi's never felt its important.

Presently Pluto is transiting my Ascendant alongwith Rahu and both these planets are also in 10th house of my career...my career as come to a standstill during this transit.