Marseilles Seekers Thread (Fifth Exercise)

Satori

I was reading Melancholic's work last night! I like it, but again, he is using some suit/elemental attributes, and nothing against it....but....what if you don't think of cups as opposites to wands???? I actually think he has created a fabulous system...but I've only just found my wings here...and I'm not going to let anyone clip them!
 

Satori

Bernice said:
Why not do both? Every experience in life, and every scrap of knowledge we gain, serves to broaden our comprehension. The combination of these two can not only enrichen us individally, it's also a deep resource for us to draw on when doing any divinatory work.

Bee :)

I agree...I believe I said exactly that just a few posts ago.
 

EnriqueEnriquez

mosaica said:
I had a dream this morning, for which I drew some cards, but it reminded me of something that I'd like to share here. I like to record my dreams using a stream-of-conscious method suggested by James Hillman in his book "Inter Views." He suggests "taking the punctuation out" when you record a dream, and I realized that what he has to say about dreams is also important for tarot reading, especially the kind of reading that EE is teaching us:

The verbal mode of working with the image, the poetic mode of working with the image, releases their meanings that were concealed in the phonemes, concealed in the etymology. The word in the dream is not restricted to conceptual interpretation because the word in the dream is not a concept. It's an image arriving out of imagination, and the dictionary meaning, the denotation of the word, is only part....

There are lots of simple things you can do to break up the literal sense of your dream interpretations, those fixed meanings inherent in our usual language. That literalism, that dayworld rational secular commonsense has to be overcome again and again.... For instance, most people ... tell their dreams in sentences. If you take the punctuation out of the dream, so that you're looking at it the way you would look at an ancient Babylonian or Hebrew text, where you don't know quite whether that's an "ayn" or ... an "alef," you don't know what it is, you don't really know what to do, and then you get about ten different possibilities about that text. Freud used the same metaphor for the dream: an ancient text.

We're talking about animating the images, not content of dreams. This is the crucial job now.... It's not a question of ... recognizing that there are images [in your dreams] or that images are important.... All these images ... are ... tremendously significant.... [But] the imagination is fundamental.

[Freud and Jung, however,] took what they saw and didn't leave it where it was, but moved it into "this means that." ... They brought up the material and then by the translation sent it back down again.... Once you've translated the dream,... you no longer need the image, and you let the image only say one thing.... This leaves the soul unanimated. That is, unalive. The images are not walking around on their own legs. They've been turned into meanings.... Now let's leave [behind] meaning and the search for meaning, and the meaning of life.

Dreams are extraordinary, people's lives are extraordinary, unbelievable; fantastic things happen all the time ... and it's translated into the deadest, dullest, most serious, most unimaginative ... an utter bore.... Instead,... we have to let in the puer [silly, playful, imaginative, wild] aspect of what's going on in one's life.


That's what we are doing here, with the Marseille and EE. We are animating the images -- the images of the tarot, and the images of our lives.

For my dream, I drew the following cards:

Ten of Coins - a tree
Royne de Bastons - I sit beneath the tree, while a root and my husband's hand reach playfully up from below
Royne de Denier - A gift (my husband, playfulness, and imagination) that I give to myself and my children

This provides a metaphor for all the things that I want for my family: balance (roots and branches, above and below), stability, play, love, friends, and the gift of imagination. It's also a metaphor for what my husband and I each provide to that picture -- my seriousness, and his playfulness. Through him, I give something to my children that I have a harder time giving.

But I think the larger metaphor of these cards is about tarot itself. Through working with Marseille, we have come to sit beneath a very old tree. We invite the images of subconscious (the roots of the tree) to come out, to push playfully up into the light of day and give us a hand, as we work to listen to those images and present them back to the world as a gift in the form of metaphor.

(I have written more about my dream on my blog, but I wanted to share the Hillman quote and the cards that I drew here.)

Mosaica

Although I haven’t read the book you mention, I find James Hillman very inspiring. The quote you have shared is right on the mark! I like that imaginal nature of the cards, and I love the possibility of working at that imaginal level, in which signs flow in all directions, without we have to be leashed by any dogma, while the images are what we need from them to be at any given time. (BTW, IMAGINAL is a real, specific word, not a misspelling for ‘imagination’ :) it means: “of, relating to, or involving imagination, images, or imagery”).

Excellent quote! Thanks!

The X of Deniers is one of my favorite cards. I love the way these coins, by being depicted in a smaller scale than in any other card, let the white background breath. I find that makes the cards very expressive.

Looking at the three cards you got, the first thing that comes to my attention is the eye rhyme between the coins in X de Deniers and the coin in the Royne de Denier’s hand. This is, the second queen holding in her hand a fruit from the tree that’s beneath the first queen.

Now, I am going to diverge a little bit from what you saw, and from your dream (which by no means imply that what you see is wrong)... The Royne de Batons seems to be admiring the fruit that the Royne de Denier is holding in her hand. To continue with your analogy, there is a tree, a woman turning her back on the tree, and a woman holding a fruit from the tree. I wonder if the Royne de Batons knows that the tree is back there. I wonder if she knows that these fruits are within her reach. Not the one in he Royne de Denier’s hand, but the other fruits, still hanging on the tree. I also see that he Royne de Deniers may be a little cocky, showing off that fruit, and I wonder if she realizes that the Royne de Batons owns the whole tree. There is a story my father used to tell me, about two neighbors. One of the neighbors had a very aggressive dog, who kept chasing the other neighbor’s dog. This second dog was huge, but spent its days sleeping. The first neighbors kept making fun of the other neighbors lazy dog, but the second neighbor tried his best at not let the two dogs fight. Finally, one day, the first neighbor launched his dog over the second neighbor’s dog, and there was not even a fight: the huge lazy dog simply ate the aggressive dog. “Look at what your dog did!” The first neighbor said, lamenting on the lost of his aggressive dog. “That is the thing -the second neighbor said- it is not a dog, but a shaved lion”.

That’s what I see in these cards today :)

Best,

EE
 

lark

Satori said:
I was reading Melancholic's work last night! I like it, but again, he is using some suit/elemental attributes, and nothing against it....but....what if you don't think of cups as opposites to wands???? I actually think he has created a fabulous system...but I've only just found my wings here...and I'm not going to let anyone clip them!
Ditto for me too...Mel has a nice thing going, but I do not want any suit/element/attributes involved in this.
I want to run on pure air and instinct.
I've been wanting to make a break through with the Tdm for years and I'm not going to muck it up now with a lot of other stuff...I'm just on the edge and I want to fall over right here with this method. :)

And yes, study is nice...I study....I'm fine with that, but I think when that becomes the main focus reading falls by the wayside.
And I'm a reader...can't help it that's what I am, not a historian...so I'm so much more interested in using the cards....and sometimes knowing to much about where this and that came from takes the magic out of it.
I have that in my head and then I can't see the intuitive symbol....just like how some of us didn't want to read anyone else's examples before we did our lesson...we wanted fresh innocent eyes to see what the cards wanted to show us.

So if I see a grain bag sitting on the Empress's lap...I see a grain bag...I don't feel the need to have it verified by a historical reference.
It would be interesting..but even if it can't be verified I'll still see a grain bag.
 

Bernice

>>..go check out the Seekers thread...<<<

Stella: I apologise for being cross-eyed :) :) :) THIS is the thread.. I have no wish to cause further confusion. I'm confused enough as it is. (swigs coffee, lights ciggy, wishes she had the Dodal deck....)

Bee :)

Lark: "So if I see a grain bag sitting on the Empress's lap...I see a grain bag...I don't feel the need to have it verified by a historical reference.
It would be interesting..but even if it can't be verified I'll still see a grain bag."

Do tell me what you see in the lap of the Swords Queen... it's been bugging me - looks like a bare foot!
 

lark

Bernice said:
>>..go check out the Seekers thread...<<<

Stella: I apologise for being cross-eyed :) :) :) THIS is the thread.. I have no wish to cause further confusion. I'm confused enough as it is. (swigs coffee, lights ciggy, wishes she had the Dodal deck....)

Bee :)
There, there Bee.... we love you anyway :love:
Here play with my Dodal for awhile just don't get coffee on it.
 

Bernice

:) smiling - and happy again :)
 

lark

Bernice said:
Do tell me what you see in the lap of the Swords Queen... it's been bugging me - looks like a bare foot!
Which deck are you looking at?
Noblet?
 

Hooked on TdM

It's the Queen of Wands..

Hooked
 

EnriqueEnriquez

It has been great to read the great insights you are all sharing here. I am going to add a couple of things, without responding to any post in particular.

- I think is important to point out that, here, we are tapping into the anagogical level of these cards (By taking them as medieval documents), but there is also a literal, allegorical, and moral level that can be studied and explored. We aren't focusing on that here, but some people is doing great work at that, and therefore, getting familiar with their work can only make you, not better readers, but better persons.

- I am very grateful to all your kind comments on this exercises. They mean the world to me. Most important, I personally thank you for being here, and for not giving up on the Marseille. I have enormous problems with the 'illustrated' pips on the non-Marseille decks because I feel they put a leash on my possibilities for insight. This days, we live in a "visual culture for the visually impaired", in which our eyes are feed but we don't see. I opened this exercises relating a story from Oskar Kokoschka, the Austrian painter. Late on his life Kokoschka opened a school for artists, a summer school. He called it "The School of Sight". He taught people who wanted to become painters, not how to paint, but how to see. The Marseille has been my own school of sight. Not giving up on the initially abstract nature of the pips helped me understand that everything is a voice, everything can talk to us. The other day I took my two kids plus 4 friends to the movies. They were really pushing my nerves! Yet, when we pass by a building, two of the kids stopped to feel the air coming from a duct. The duct came from the building's laundry room, and the kids stopped to rejoice on the dry smell of laundry. Right there, that was a haiku! The duct was a voice calling these kids, just as a little vine on a card is a voice calling us.

- I already posted this two quotes from Anselm Kiefer before, but I will post them again because I think it is good to keep them "at our bedside" when we explore the world of symbol. Kiefer is an interesting example in that he is an skeptic, working through his art on his own spiritual development. The true work of any artist is to make his/her own soul. Since my background is in the arts too, I guess it is equally natural for me to grab a symbol to turn it around and see how it works, all that without feeling I am committing a sacrilege. All symbols are man made. As Kiefer have also said "all stories about heaven started on earth". At some point in history, an image-maker purposefully created each symbol we know. We have a peculiar relationship with symbols in that we tend to relate to them as if they were chains, chains that we create for ourselves.

Here are the quotes again:

"The most interesting fact about constellations is that they are completely arbitrary. When we look up to the heavens we are always in a position to see new and different pictures. We can invent them millions of times, over and over again. And this demonstrates once more the many different layers of the Mythical. And of arbitrariness in a positive sense, which allows us to invent constellations as we see it fit... This brings us back to the beginning, where we said that there is no generally valid overall meaning-nothing per se. We must all create our own meaning. An artist creates a meaning and it is possible to associate this with constellations, which are images arbitrarily drawn by human beings."

"Everything we say is fiction. "It is a nice day" is already a fiction. That is why we must avoid constructing dogma with language. The idea that plants are directly connected with the starts is very pretty. Its an explanation that works with me dasein. It's a consolation. Having said that, irony is indispensable. These are words pronounced by human beings, they can only be used ironically because they are always incomplete. What we say is always a bit ridiculous. People who use words without irony are fanatics, not full human beings. One should always be ready to laugh, because everything is ridiculous. I distrust belief, all dogma. They are nothing but ways of gaining power, of exciting chauvinism."

- Ritual is good, but only if we use it to set the tone of an experience. It becomes useless when it is used to instill in us the fear of being inadequate.

- I agree with the idea of the Marseille being a tarot for the common man. This is to say, these cards were cheap, and they were roughly made. I find peculiar the obsession some people has about finding the illusion of intention in each single detail of these cards: “Look! There is an extra finger in La Force’s foot. A certain allusion to the Druids’ recipe for chutney”. Have you ever being on a printing workshop? Then you will know that most of the guys working there are akin to plumbers, or mechanics: technicians and workmen who are dying to go home at the end of the day. Many obtuse details in the cards are simply that: mistakes who no one cared to fix because there cards were intended to be sold to the common man who, in turn, wanted to play with them. Our rejoice in that roughness is, in fact, a sign of what Ernst Gombrich defined as "The Preference for the Primitive", which has to do with the way art history, and taste, swings back and forth between a thirst for beauty and a longing for transcendence. Our quest for beauty always takes us to an extreme, an excess or mannerism, which is pretty much what we see this days with all these fantasy tarots. When we go too far on that path, this is, when our lust blind us and we get too many ‘tarot cup-cakes’ we feel the urge to regain our ground by embracing rougher, simpler, shapes. That "preference for the primitive" underlines a psychological principle that goes back to Plato: a simpler life is morally superior, therefore, simpler shapes are 'truer' shapes. Having this is mind is very useful when we choose a Tarot deck. Specially if we want to elicit powerful psychological phenomena in our guest's minds with them.

- Finally, I have a little secret to share: it is my intention to find better words to talk about the tarot, so I can give you better words to talk about the tarot. I have seen how, when a regular person approaches the tarot without weird preconceptions, the results are extraordinary and the tarot becomes truly useful. But so far, in our field, we have been happy with assuming we are weird, that only those who share our weirdness will come to us, and that this is OK. I don’t see the usefulness of that. That is why I want to borrow the words of poetry, painting, philosophy, psychology and art, to bring the tarot up to the level it deserves to be. Two nights ago we saw The Tiger in the Snow, by Roberto Benigni. The movie is ‘flaccid’ at best. But it has a couple of extraordinary moments. One of them is when Benigni, who plays the role of a poet in the film, explain to his daughter why he became a poet: "One day I was at the park and a bird perched itself on my shoulder for about an hour. I stood there, like a tree, until the bird left. It was so amazing that I ran excited to tell my mom, but she was busy and didn't pay attention to me". Begnini's daughters said "That was bad from Grandma!" and Benigni said: "No. It was me. I didn't told the story right. I didn't choose the right words to say what I was feeling. That is why, when I learned that there were poets, people who worked at finding the right words for everything, I became one".

All the time, I am looking for better words to talk about the tarot, something that most people takes for granted as the silly pastime of superstitious geeks.

Best,

EE