Beginner's Reflections: Ace of Wands [Baston]

Re: El Kabong . . .

full deck said:

Sure, it's much more idyllic than a lead pipe.
Welcome to the club . . .

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Hahaha. I guess!

I suppose that a club is much more true to nature also. Beaten to death by nature. What a lovely thought! LOL. Muhaha.

Hi Centaur,

When I first looked at the Ace de Baton in the Fournier I was immediately reminded of a time I went through bushfire country in 1982 after some of the worst fires in our history the year before. The gum trees all had new sucklings growing from them in the purest and lightest of greens. It was a very striking image. The trunks of the gums were still scarred from the fires but these delightful sucklings were caressing them back to life. It was a very healing image. Nature repairing itself, using an incredible energy within to do so.

Looking at the Fournier Ace de Baton, the red interior of the Baton seem to represent that dynamic, intense inherent energy, showing its effectiveness in the deep rich green on the outside. If one extends the metaphor of the gum tree further, the healing energy of the tree makes the leaves (yods) hover around it, suspended by this same energy.

I always look at the Aces as embodying the spirit and principal energy of the element of the suit. This Ace de Baton (is that the right way to say it?) certainly does that. It is literally aflame with energy, yet supported by some Divine holding force. It does promise much for the role of the other batons through the suit. Each of the Court characters carry a baton but in different measure and style according to their role.

Moongold

I am following this thread with interest and the thing that springs to my mind when I look at the hands on the As de Bastons and As D'Espees is the fact both of these suits are the Masculine. On the other hand (pardon pun ) the Coupes and Deniers are feminine (no hands there!). Furthermore, they are both right hands albeit one showing the palm and the other not. Right is the side of the, consciousness, action, direction, dynamism and power, which are traits we expect in these two suits.

J

Gees Jewel-ry, if I were a guy I think I'd be blushing (maybe what I think you just pointed out is not actually what you meant to point out )

A couple of weeks ago I started to feel very dissatisfied with my understanding of what this object being held actually is . . . I mean, I understand it's 'supposed' to be a branch of some sort, but why does the cross-section at the top tend to appear hollow? Plants don't have hollow centers . . . & why do these cross-sectioned areas seem generally to be colored red? Moreover--if the 'flame' things hovering around it are leaves, where are the twigs that should connect them to the baton itself? Obviously, they've been cut off . . . so, what are the leaves doing up there in the air without them?

The fact that so much of this plant has been cut strikes me as significant in & of itself (if, indeed, it really is a plant) . . . It's a pretty brutal image, really.

A couple of weeks ago, pondering these questions, I took some melatonin in order to make myself fall asleep 7 hours earlier than I normally do. Before actually falling asleep, but under the influence of the substance, it hit me, what I had been 'seeing' all along subconsciously but not formalizing: a vein, a blood vessel, severed & drained of its contents (drops of which fill the air around it . . . one might even read them as having 'spurted', as from a main artery . . . )

Well, I know the card's name itself lends preference to vegetable, as opposed to animal, interpretations. But I just thought I'd throw out my 'vision' for what it's worth.

Jewel-ry,

I am very interested in the observation you made above (Punch came in over the top of me!) but I have not been following the left/right discussions.

Perhaps I should go back and have another look but I am curious to know where the left/right = feminine/masculine assumption originated. Is it a fairly contemporary overlay or does it reflect a far deeper archetypal reality?

The hand itself could be either masculine or feminine in terms of actual drawing. And some, but not all, of the the characteristics assigned to each suit could be seen historically as belonging to masculine social roles of the time.

I am still somewhat skeptical of the assignation of specific and instinctive thinking and behaviours to masculine and feminine roles. There are a couple of issues underpinning my questions, which I ask with strong intellectual interest, not antagonism.

Firstly, is there an archetypal dimension to the masculine /feminine characteristics and role question and what does that mean for those who do question it? I guess even the Gods tolerate ambiguity Hahahahah Well, I hope so.

Secondly, if this is a comparatively recent interpretive overlay, does it support the idea I have that perhaps the Marseilles is not as fundamental or abstract a system as is sometimes presented?

Ah, it was difficult to put these questions in words but I hope I have been clear.

Edited to add: I know the yin/yan stuff and the relatively recent biological research into left brain/right brain. My question relates more to the Marseilles and how we interpret that. Did the original designers have the masculine/feminine consciousness in mind in whatever way that would have occurred way back then, or are we putting different cultural and time dimensions on our interpretations, which is natural.



Moongold

I can see where you are coming from but I have to say I am not sure about the spurting artery. I think that would be a pretty brutal image and I am not sure what the message would be!

It is funny when we get these visions isn't it? Whenever I see the As de Bastons, I see it as a torch and want to see a flame coming out of the top so that it can light the way in a dark cave. Come to think of it, thats probably pretty relevant!!

J

P.S. Punchinella, just realised what you are getting at!!

Moongold said:

Looking at the Fournier Ace de Baton, the red interior of the Baton seem to represent that dynamic, intense inherent energy, showing its effectiveness in the deep rich green on the outside. If one extends the metaphor of the gum tree further, the healing energy of the tree makes the leaves (yods) hover around it, suspended by this same energy.

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Yes. I really like that idea. I guess that one could call the 'intense inherent energy' the stuff of life. Universal life-force? Spirit?

Originally posted by Punchinella
A couple of weeks ago, pondering these questions, I took some melatonin in order to make myself fall asleep 7 hours earlier than I normally do. Before actually falling asleep, but under the influence of the substance, it hit me, what I had been 'seeing' all along subconsciously but not formalizing: a vein, a blood vessel, severed & drained of its contents (drops of which fill the air around it . . . one might even read them as having 'spurted', as from a main artery . . . )

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I can see why this might look like a vein, but I would think that the red interior may signify the blood held within and not the drained interior. I would think that the red interior would suggest that the vein is full of life. I think that this would fit in nicely with what has been said already re. the 'intense inherent energy' or life-energy approach.

Hi there Moongold,

I didn't really get this from the right/left discussions, it was more a case of an idea which I have seen in several books. For instance, Rachel Pollack says in her 'Complete Illustrated Guide to Tarot' : 'Wands and Swords are the masculine suits, both by their phallic emblems and their qualities of action, mental activity, and aggressiveness. Cups and Pentacles belong to such feminine qualities as love, relationships, home, stillness and nature'. I have to say that I can understand this angle because historically men were depicted to have all of those qualities and women the more feminine ones.

When I related it to the hands, I wasn't really thinking about the hands being male or female, it was more a case of the right hand which is active/conscious as opposed to the left hand which is always referred to as the receptive/unconscious side.

Did the original designers have the masculine/feminine consciousness in mind in whatever way that would have occurred way back then, or are we putting different cultural and time dimensions on our interpretations, which is natural.

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This is a very good question and one I suspect we will never really know but since the Marseille deck has its origins hundreds of years ago I do find it believable.

J

Thanks Jewel-ry ~

I think we have to give ourselves permission to interpret the Marseilles in a contemporary way. Otherwise it loses relevance and meaning.

Ah.....................we get back to the discussion about What is Tarot and why do we use it ?, don't we?


Moongold

Centaur said:

I can see why this might look like a vein, but I would think that the red interior may signify the blood held within and not the drained interior. I would think that the red interior would suggest that the vein is full of life. I think that this would fit in nicely with what has been said already re. the 'intense inherent energy' or life-energy approach.

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You know, my personal reaction to Ace/Batons in other decks as well (decks where it's 'Wands' ) has always been a bit ambivalent. It seems to me that raw energy can just as easily serve destructive as constructive ends. & the energy in this card is definitely raw (progression to more refined manifestations in court cards noted, I think by Jmd, at start of thread). --But, yeah, I do realize that the spurting artery thing might be just a tad extreme

I have another question. Everyone seems to refer to the leaves/flames/drops of blood floating through the air as "yods". My dictionary tells me that a yod is the tenth letter of the Hebrew alphabet, but I'm curious to know why, specifically, these are seen as yods . . . is it a matter of shape? --& if so, what might the appearance of yods here indicate (I'm completely ignorant on this topic . . . but after all, this is labelled as a beginner's thread right?)

Punch