Beginner's Reflections: Ace of Wands [Baston]

[Kissa]

Using Hadar deck.

I counted the "whatever they are called" little things floating around the Bâton. They are (to my great surprise) 10 of each colour: red, yellow and blue. This must mean something, Mr Hadar doesn't sound like the kind of guy likely to put things by accident on his cards.

10 of each. No colour gets more than another. Rapidly, red for physical life (blood), yellow for intellectual activity (light, conscience, clarity) and blue for spirituality (dream, imagination, unconscious). Body, mind, soul in my good al' RWS habits... (Diana don't shoot me yet, I'm making efforts )

They all are equal, dancing around the As de Bâton.

Can someone help me here??

Are they all contained in the Bâton? Does the Bâton irradiate them? Is it burning? Does the Bâton need all three aspects to move to the next levels? Are they to be integrated somehow in the Bâton? Do they get in with the help of the holding hand?

I don't think the Bâton is burning, I can't see why the hand would be carrying/presenting/offering it to us then.

Is the Bâton to be watched from inside towards outside (from the red colour, circled with yellow then green) or do we discover the layers successively : green, then yellow then red? I'd go for the latter one because it is what my logical mind says: whatever we do on this earth, we have to dig to get to the heart of things...

And this weird decoration around the holding hand???

I am really sorry for asking these questions who probably sound extremely naive to the Marseille specialists here. If they have been discussed in a previous thread, just put a link to it, that will be fine with me!

Thanks very much for any answer.

Here is the card:
http://www.tarotforum.net/attachment.php?s=&postid=363995

Kissa

 

[Diana]

Using Hadar deck.
I counted the "whatever they are called" little things floating around the Bâton. They are (to my great surprise) 10 of each colour: red, yellow and blue. This must mean something, Mr Hadar doesn't sound like the kind of guy likely to put things by accident on his cards.

I will write to him and ask him. (As to your other musings, no-one has spoken of these before and I hope there will be lots of responses. I will come back to this thread soon - no time right now.)

 

[Moonbow]

When looking at both the Ace of Batons and the Ace of Swords the 'yods' look different in each card. Perhaps it's the arrangement of them or the shape, but the impression I get from one card is completely different to the other. In the Ace of Batons the hand is presenting the baton in a burst of flames, the flames almost appear to be suspended in mid air. Whereas in the Ace of Swords, the sword is thrust through the crown and they look more like a shower of leaves falling,to me. Therefore they not only have a different directional movement, but the same symbol takes on a different look and meaning, to me.

 

[Diana]

Kris Hadar's response to Kissa's question

Here is Kris Hadar's response to Kissa (see further above) concerning the little things that float around the Ace of Baton. First I will post his original answer in French, and the post following it, will be the English translation. If anyone would like to improve on my translation, please PM me so I can make the necessary changes.

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Ce qui flotte autour du Bâton est en fait, des flammes. On les retrouve aussi dans la carte du Jugement, conforme à tous les jeux anciens. Ce qui prouve sans l'ombre d'un doute que le bâton est un élément qui brûle et que les concepteurs du tarot associait bien les bâtons au feu, tout comme les coupes à l'eau, la terre aux deniers et les épées à l'air.

Il y en a 10 fois 3. C'est simple à comprendre ou complexe à expliquer. Complexe, parce que tes lecteurs et la plupart des auteurs s'intéressant à la symbolique, tout comme aux mathématiques ignorent que le premier système mathématique n'était pas le décimal. C'est facile à le dire quand on réalise que nos ancètres n'étaient pas des capitalistes qui passaient leur temps à compter leur moutons, mais bien des personnes qui mettaient tout à la collectivité. Il n'est demeure pas moins, qu'à l'image de Pythagore, 10 est le nombre de la réalisation parfaite issue de son fameux tétraktis, qui donnait naissance à une autre dimension... Parce qu'il symbolise un triangle sur une base quatre pour expliquer que le 3 donne naissance toujours à une quatrième dimension. 3 donne 4 et 4 est une nouvelle unité vers autres chose. Dans ce sens, nous trouvons dans l'as de bâton, la perfection 10 s'accomplissant sur les 3 plans : spirituel, divine et matériel et que le feu du ciel en est l'esprit qui les anime, tout comme les langues de feu descendent sur les apôtres le jour de la Pentecôte.

Sachez que dans les mineures, tous les as sont l'Objectif d'une couleur qui explique le développement des nombres de 1 à 10... et 10 en est le triomphe, pour ainsi dire, comme dans les bâtons le couronnement, comme l'exprime le 10 de bâtons avec ses 2 couronnes : le couronnement de la spiritualité qui nous habite, mais aussi celui de la matière dont nous sommes issus pour la gloire de Dieu.

 

[Diana]

English translation of the above post

What floats around the Baton is in fact, flames. We also find them in the card of Judgement, in conformity with all the ancient decks. Which proves without a shadow of a doubt that the baton is an element that burns, and that the designers of the tarot did associate batons to fire, and cups to water, earth to deniers and swords to air.

There are 10 times 3. It is easy to understand or complex to explain. Complex, because your readers and most authors who are interested in symbolism, as well as mathematics, are unaware that the first mathematical system was not decimal. It is easy to understand when one realises that our ancestors were not capitalists who spent their time counting their sheep, but actually pepole who put everything back into the community. Nevertheless, it is true that in the eyes of Pythagoras, 10 is the number of perfect realisation, stemming from his famous Tetraktys, which gave birth to another dimension... Because it symbolises a triangle on a base four, to explain that the 3 always gives birth to a fourth dimension. 3 gives 4 and 4 is a new unity towards other things. Thus, we find in the Ace of Batons the perfection of 10 being accomplished on three planes : spiritual, divine and material, and the fire of the heavens is its spirit which animates them, just like the tongues of fire descending on the apostles on the day of the Pentecost.

Know that in the minors, all the Aces are the Objective of a suit which explains the development of the numbers from 1 to 10... and 10 is, one could say, their triumph, just as in the Batons, the crowning, as one can see in the 10 of Batons with its two crowns : the crowning of the spirituality which inhabits us, but also that of the matter from which we come for the glory of God.

 

[Rusty Neon]

From Hadar:

Know that in the minors, all the Aces are the Objective of a suit which explains the development of the numbers from 1 to 10... and 10 is, one could say, their triumph, just as in the Batons, the crowning, as one can see in the 10 of Batons with its two crowns : the crowning of the spirituality which inhabits us, but also that of the matter from which we come for the glory of God.

Which historic tarot pattern has two crowns depicted in the 10 of Batons?

 

[Diana]

Rusty Neon: Would you like me to write to him and ask him for an explanation? I would be quite happy to do this.

 

[Kissa]

Thank you so much Diana! and thank you to Kris as well for taking the time to answer the question you forwarded to him!

I still have to read the text a few times in french to understand exactly what is with the 3 and the 10 but I am sure I will eventually get it!

I already knew about the Ace being the Seed or the Essence of the suit and really appreciated Kris explaining why he decided to illustrate the Dix de Bâtons with two crowns. I think we all understood of course that you asked Kris precisely about the patterns in the Bâtons of his own deck and not to comment on ancient decks and historical patterns.

Kissa

 

[Diana]

I still have to read the text a few times in french to understand exactly what is with the 3 and the 10 but I am sure I will eventually get it!

Kissa: You'll need to study a wee bit on the Tetraktys to understand what he's getting at. (There always comes a point when one is studying the Marseilles, that mathematics starts creeping in. Not mathematics like you learnt at school though...)

 

[Kissa]

My faithful Google is willing to help me on that Tetris thing... hum I meant Tetraktys...

Kissa

Edited to add: and the result was fast: by Tom T. Little: http://www.telp.com/tarot/tetraktys.htm
Thank you dear Google!