critique

I think what's proposed is a good idea if it stops destructive criticism. No artist could enjoy or gain much from that and I do not believe it is helpful to would-be purchasing members, but on the other hand constructive criticism where a poster said what didn't work in a deck for them - and why not, and (maybe, but only maybe) what they thought could be done instead could only be helpful.

And whilst that might seem like fairness and common sense to most of us, it may save a good deal of ill feeling and acrimony.

Similarly a post saying what worked - and why - is more useful than a gushy-oh-isn't-it-beautiful one, isn't it?

At least - this is how I would understand formal criticism as opposed to informal. I also don't think much can be learned by an artist from posts saying "Aaaaargh, my eyes" comments but - "this deck is too bright for me because ........" is not offensive. There is a difference although both posts would, in effect, say the same thing ......

The artists in turn must understand that not everyone will love their work, and those who don't love it have just as much right to say so - and why - as those who do

I'm afraid this sounds likely to result in a lot of heavy-duty editing by moderators of ideas that may not be expressed in what they see as the proper fashion or with the proper frame of mind.

Debra said:

I'm afraid this sounds likely to result in a lot of heavy-duty editing by moderators of ideas that may not be expressed in what they see as the proper fashion or with the proper frame of mind.

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Are you thinking the membership just want to make "funny" cracks that don't say anything useful for either other members or the artists then? I can't think of many places where you're allowed to just slag off another person's work . I believe in criticism - but do think that one should be required to put a little thought into it. It's feedback, and no-one likes being told their reading sucked and they are a rotten reader, but they might not mind being told that it missed the mark here and here, and why it missed.

Wendywu said:

Are you thinking the membership just want to make "funny" cracks that don't say anything useful for either other members or the artists then? I can't think of many places where you're allowed to just slag off another person's work . I believe in criticism - but do think that one should be required to put a little thought into it. It's feedback, and no-one likes being told their reading sucked and they are a rotten reader, but they might not mind being told that it missed the mark here and here, and why it missed.

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ACTUALLY -I'm on another non-tarot forum where members' art work IS put up for crit, and there ARE such guidelines and they seem to work reasonably well. Mods do step in occasionally but MOSTLY leave the offending posts in place which results in the members being able to SEE what offended. But MOSTLY the membership almost mod each other - you'll see posts saying "that's NOT helpful" and "no need to be rude."

There is, however, a "warn" system. If you cop a warn, it sits under your avatar - others can't see it but it's there as a reminder and believe me, you don't like to see them (I've only ever had them when I first joined, as I would inadvertently break the odd rule.) They go away after a month or so, IF you don't offend again. If you cop enough warnings, you get suspended; when you get to 10 you are banned.

I have often thought that might be good to see here in general.... I'm sure the mods have a system like it - but the advantage of THIS one is that you can see - every time you see your own posts - how close you are to a ban !

My initial thoughts...

These are just my thoughts. I am not saying anyone is wrong nor am I closing any doors. Just, well....

The sub-Forum concept: Tarot Deck Creation is not a busy forum. Often there is only one active threads and almost never more than three. To split that small number would effectively mean two 'dead' forums.

And, sub-Forums are not very visible on the main Index page. I know, as I just had a query where the answer is effectively taken care of in Daily Draws. Members get frustrated when they post in sub-forums because they get so few responses.

Overall: of the people who post threads in TDC, most are creating their own decks for personal use and want help. I have found the members here to be very generous with their time and experience, answering questions on format, paper, printing, colour mediums, even suit names. I see no reason to change this.

These same members are sharing their art, and often beginners, just wanting to express what they feel about cards. There is no reason to critique their art, this is what they can do at this stage. Help can be offered about many aspects though, and should be.

We get very few advanced deck creators now and for reasons expressed in this thread. There is another reason: once an artist has developed a style and vision, then 'decks by committee' don't work for them any more. Now, I know for example that baba-prague changed the Wheel of Fortune in the Baroque Bohemian Cats deck because quite a few people didn't understand the original image. To me that is a good example of comments leading to an artist's response which is likely beneficial all around.

So, guidelines. um, does anyone read them? I now have four exclamation points after "Please Read!!!!" on the Your Readings guidelines and people still ignore them. Ditto Using Tarot Cards.

I would be fine with constructing a set of 'serious' critique guidelines, which I can do by scanning this thread and then posting them for comment and change. I can add "Please read!!!!" for the thread starters. I can and will ask people to be reasonably polite.

But, honestly, other than following Netiquette, do you all really want to be told what you can post by way of opinions?

Alta

Alta said:

I would be fine with constructing a set of 'serious' critique guidelines, which I can do by scanning this thread and then posting them for comment and change. I can add "Please read!!!!" for the thread starters. I can and will ask people to be reasonably polite.

But, honestly, other than following Netiquette, do you all really want to be told what you can post by way of opinions?

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No, I think netiquette is what matters most - it is ignoring that that has hurt people, I think.

And no, I agree - we don't need a subforum, IMHO.

gregory said:

No, I think netiquette is what matters most - it is ignoring that that has hurt people, I think.

And no, I agree - we don't need a subforum, IMHO.

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I do agree - posting things in a style and with words that would never be used face to face are, I think, what has been quite damaging in the past.

And no, sub-forums don't work.

And no - people don't reading Posting Guidelines..... this is a source of ongoing frustration for me

I've agreed with most of what's been said.

If I ever design my own deck, I will make a point to be explicit in what I'm looking for by posting my cards. Perhaps we can add that to the guidelines to the general forum, so if a serious artist/designer comes in, perhaps they'll see it. I know that if I were new to a forum, had something real and marketable to share, I would read the guidelines before posting it. I do think there's a place for constructive, more formal criticism here, but perhaps we do need to leave it up to the artist to ask.

Will think some more on this ....

I think that maybe a guidelines post named: Guidelines for deck designers and critiques, might be a good idea. Everyone will do what they want but to be able to point to something like that would be helpful. Just like we can point to the outstanding copyright post when needed.
Guidelines on how to put into your deck thread the idea of what you are looking for response wise ie, cheer me on, or I want to publish this. State if you are open to critique of the art or content. Not everyone is open to it, and that is fine as well. Also a few tips on how to best critique the art. Not just saying WOW or EWWW but expressing what it is that you feel is the strong or weak points. Unfortunately it’s easier for people to just quip off a quick 10 word reply then it is to think, compose and then respond. There are going to be people that WANT to do the latter and maybe having these guidelines would give them the added courage to take the plunge into engaging a discussion as opposed to just sitting on the sidelines saying nothing.

This subject has been discussed on so many occasions before that I really don't think anything thats been expressed on this particular thread is new.

Nevertheless for what its worth... a few thoughts.


The key word in this thread is "constructive" and that does have some relevance in this particular deck creation forum, but less so in others.

Some context……I post occasional images of a project I'm working on, here on this forum, I do so for promotion yes, obviously. However if people assume its only for promotion, they would be wrong because Aeclectic is in fact far from being the most effective on line means of doing that. I don't think either fluffy comments or harsh critique would actually effect sales that much either way any more, so I'm really making these comments now on behalf of other artists who are earlier along on their deck creating careers, rather than at the end of it like me.

Now, the other reason I post images is because people seem to genuinely find following the progress of a project interesting. And they also enjoy the opportunity to have a dialogue with the artists behind the products they might eventually end up buying.

Personally I do not really want feedback, I post image just to to show what I'm up to and generate interest, but as Gregory pointed out, by simply putting it out there, one must expect that critique will follow. So with that said "constructive " critique can be a good thing in general. In my last two projects I must have modified at least 10 images in some way or another based on observations pointed out by members on this forum. By default of the deck not being finished, any opinions which I felt were valid, I had time to do something about it. However If I disagreed with them I could as has been suggested, simply ignore them. The problems if any, generate from any attempt by the artist to respond, to have a dialogue, and indicate why they might not agree with said critique, because that in turn is interpreted as being a prima donna, or having a hissy fit. Some have even suggested in the past that artists should not be allowed to participate in such threads.

Surely this freedom of expression should flow both ways. Just as with someone posting an image of their work, if someone posts a critique "out there", then you in turn should expect and accept a response, explanation or counterpoint of sorts in return wether from other members or indeed the person directly involved??? Complaining that you are made to feel uncomfortable about writing something negative, because that might be read by the person it was about or their supporters, seems almost comical in its irony. If you are going to dish it out then don't just dismiss any response as being defensive or not being able to "take the heat" because the subjects of your "critique" surely are entitled to offer an opinion also. After all it probably took them a year or two of effort, hope and dreams to produce the deck and you about a minute to write the critique.

Constructive critique also serves another benefit, if it does provide a reality check especially to a first time deck creator, who may be tempted to get in over their heads financially, investing in the costs of publishing their baby on false hopes raised by over fawning feedback, only to then have a garage of unsold inventory, and printers bills to pay.

General critique after the deck is produced is more questionable though, its "constructiveness" is too late in a sense unless it can be applied to a future project (if there is one). Critique at this stage then tends to become simply an excersise in offering and sharing of personal subjective opinions. But then thats part of the whole purpose of Aeclectic I guess…. ...although I can't think of many comments i've read over the years that are unanimous, from card stock to card size, from treatment of borders, from the illustrative style to overall themes, there is such a gamut of responses, and practically never a definitive conclusion that would really serve as a useful guideline to either the artist or the potential customer. Its just more opinions going back and forth. Added to that anyone who has spent any time on these threads, will also be familiar to a degree with who is likely to be saying what. Some will be fan like gushing, which is nice to hear of course (but don't let it go to your head, you still have to pay the printers and others you know will never have anything positive to say about your work, on the contrary you know its just a matter of time before they post their inevitable little jibe. One has to question what really is the purpose or their motivation behind such comments.... certainly not being constructive.

I do feel that critique by one deck artist about the work of another is a delicate issue that should be thought about extra carefully before posting. Personally I have only done that on one issue, and that was about Doreen Virtue, and that was directed at the business aspect of her work, not the artistic content, which she of course didn't produce.

I don't think the introduction of guidelines will serve any purpose, I think the mods do a reasonable but sometimes difficult job as it is and any guidelines would come with their own grey areas of interpretation. I think a little more tact and less in your face "i have a right to say whatever" attitude, would take care of most issues.