critique

Debra

Are you thinking the membership just want to make "funny" cracks that don't say anything useful for either other members or the artists then?

Sometimes people do, although much less often than the "I love it" comments that also contain nothing specific and therefore are not "useful."

I prefer constructive comments, but I don't see why reactions must be constructive. This is not a class we're taking for a grade.

I'm concerned about a return to heavy-handed moderating.

We're told that if we don't appreciate the approach of a particular member we should use the "ignore" feature. Shouldn't that apply across the board?
 

Debra

State if you are open to critique of the art or content. Not everyone is open to it, and that is fine as well.

Hm. I see your point.

Does the thread starter "own" the thread and have a right to control what's in it? Is it a good idea for moderators to decide if a member's observations are constructive enough?

Seems to me that someone who doesn't want members' reactions can join the forum and post an advertisement with a link to another site--their blog or facebook page for example--where they can decide whether to allow comments and delete the ones they don't like.

The harshest complaints to and about me personally from deck designers/publishers are because they do not like the comments that I do put a lot of thought into. After looking carefully at the posted cards and thinking about the artist's intentions, I've had designers react to my questions with seeming defensiveness--and then make changes along the lines I suggested. I've had private exchanges saying basically, "You're right about this problem with my project but I don't want to discuss it in public."

Things are not always as they appear.
 

poopsie

suggestion

I'm a member of a website called writing.com They have an interesting way of managing the reviews. Aside from guidelines, they have a brief "run-through sort of list" on how heavy or how intensive do you want people to review your essay or write-up.

When you want reviews which are in-depth, there's a mechanism for you to say so. On the other hand, if you don't want reviews and critiques and you just want people to read your work, there's also a mechanism for it.

I'm sorry I'm not much of a techy person but I'll look into it again so that i can post it here, or if anyone is interested, you can look into www.writing.com
 

gregory

I've had private exchanges saying basically, "You're right about this problem with my project but I don't want to discuss it in public."

Things are not always as they appear.

If I got a PM like that I would edit my post, as a courtesy to them for acknowledging it. If the artist is already working on it - why not ?

If I and an artist cannot get on in a thread I'll give up. Whose deck is it anyway ?
 

RiccardoLS

Many (too many, it could be said) of Tarot professionals have left the forum during the years.
The reasons are many.
And beside the Tarot professionals, there were many other interesting voices that disappeared. Again, the reasons were many.
But I think that the trend for Tarot professional has been that many more have left than those who came in.

Me. I routinely go histerical.... :)
And yes, Tarot professionals always have an ulterior motive (it's no bad or something to be ashamed of, it's not that we are corrupted or impure). While most of my post are by Ric, the person, I still have loyalty to LS, and have to wear their uniform.
But I never tried to "sell" anything that I didn't believe in.

Getting back to topic, a board like AT NEEDS to be free.
It cannot afford any form of compromise in that freedom. If it were to bow to the rules of the market (but here I need to disagree with a previous poster: AT is not the market. It's a very small expression of the market), it would be terrible.
The ability to express dislike, to express even extreme criticism, is pivotal to the growth of any community. It's the key to have interesting discussions... and much more.

But with freedom cames responsability.
Not jsut individual, but from the community as a whole, not to misue that freedom.

Too many times (right or wrong) I have felt so much posion and hostility, and unfairness... And too many times just disguised by civil and proper demeanor.
And too many times that attitudes had been encouraged by the community, copied and reloaded.
There are ery few reasons for anyone to stand against that.

I believe that sometimes there is an undercurrent that despise any Tarot professional, just for the fact they are professionals. While an independent author is deemed a lot of encouragement and help, and sometimes of open-mindness... other people or realities are seen as a corporate evil, that needs to be opposed, censored, and defyed. No slight is left unpunished. (and I think this goes beyond AT. We live in a world where corporate evil is a reality, but... it just means that that reality managed to poison our world even here).
Other times it seems to me that there is "envy". Simply and subtle.
And, again, there are also many different ways to conceive the Tarot. One should think that after many years we have learned to let our vision of Tarot cohesist with different visions. But it's often not the case. Each time a deck happens that follow a different path, it may get kicked as it were a menace to path one follows. And a deck is judget against parameters that don't belong to it, and the crucified. That is the part that saddens me most, because when two different Tarot paths meet each other there is such a great opportunity for understanding and growing.

In the end, responsability is not dependant on the "how" and "why"... but it gets down to the consequences. Do we (community) want the community to be without the Professionals? If so, too many times, we have done an excellent job.
(and believe me, we that remained try to keep our posting to a minimum, to avoid conflict... and it's been yera since I've seen any of us discuss with each other on the board).
Or do we consider the partecipation of the Tarot Professional as an asset, something to be valued.
If so, it should be nortured. Not with blind compliance and sheep-like cheering. But with a kind of "welcomess" that is almost utterly lacking.

In the end, I believe that the solution is not "costructive criticism", or "cheering clouds", or "speak what you want", or "be civil", or whatever.
I think the answer is attention. And much less EGO (for any kind of poster, Tarot professionals as well). ---> write to learn at least as much as you write to explain.

Ric

@Lee
I always suffer when Mark treats me badly ^_^
 

gregory

There are quite a few professionals still here, Ric - but I take your point - many of us do seem to feel (or post as though we feel !) that you professionals "should" have a thicker skin than people posting their first attempt at a fluffy dolphin deck.

And bandwagons are nasty. It's like that sick "like" button on facebook that I'm told people click without even thinking !

But you all love your artwork too, and it hurts you. I take your point. BUT - I don't see modding and asking for politeness and constructiveness as censorship. I can think of a couple of banned people for who there really was no alternative. If someone's posts really make things thoroughly unpleasant for others - what else should be done ? Ignore doesn't cut it at times.
 

Nina*

And bandwagons are nasty. It's like that sick "like" button on facebook that I'm told people click without even thinking !

Excuse ME!?! I think you missed a ''some'' before ''people''.
 

gregory

Excuse ME!?! I think you missed a ''some'' before ''people''.

"People" is generic - as in "people say that" does NOT mean all people - but OK - "some people", if that sits better with you !

Real names make a huge difference.
But there are MANY people there who don't use their real names. Pamela Colman Smith has at least three presences there, as do Aleister Crowley, the Queen and Mickey Mouse.
 

baba-prague

Edited as now out of context.
 

RiccardoLS

But maybe the facebook vs forum boards argument is out of topic here...
There are "pros" and "cons" to both, and whatever one's preference, is kind of difficult to say that one will totally cancel the others.

because it AIN'T like five years ago, and they won't return".
This is - however - probably an issue. And again, it's happening even if we all were to disagree on the reasons why.

Tarot professionals have different needs from other members of the community (as much as they have a different perspective that is - imho - very valuable. Not better, but just different).

I, for example, would not be allowed to stay here, if my presence would be an embarassment or create damage to LS. Each time that happen (and many times I found people taking extra steps to make that) my presence here becames 1) stressful 2) difficult.
Other needs to have a window to display their work. If that need is twarted, or poisoned, they will look elsewhere. They would be happy to have an interactive window, full of discussion and healthy criticism, but cannot afford to have the (necessarely limited) resources they put into their display, destroyed. They will put those resources elsewhere. Not because they are some kind of "snob". Just because it's natural. One ask himself "why?"... and then leave.

Being a Tarot Professional should not be a free pass. Never. Ever.
But - IF their (our) presence on the board is considered valuable, then there is need to act with responsibility. Not compliace, but maturity.

I don't want to pass up as a "snob", but seriously... if a tarot Professional were to leave the board, right now, it will have a zero/zilch impact on his profession. The more it goes on (like Baba said, agree to Facebook philosophy or not), the more one needs a reason to stay, and not a reason to go away. :(

Edit: cross posted with baba