There’s a broken wheel on the gurney Part Deux

Just popping in to say that I'm enjoying this thread tremendously. As a Libra, I'm pretty much seeing where every one of you is coming from.
It gives me a lot to chew on.

Sulis said:

I don't see this as being a working option for Aeclectic AT ALL.

I also wonder when someone feels that they know enough about tarot, reading and everything that goes with it to become a 'mentor'. Just how do you know that you know enough?

I wonder too about telling folks what they can and cannot read about - surely that's for the person doing the reading to decide - ethics are a personal choice and one person's ethical stance should not be pushed onto someone else no matter how much of an experienced reader the more experienced one is.

Who am I, or you to tell someone that it's wrong to read about finances, health or anything else for that matter?
Who are you to tell 'newbies' that they should be posting in Reading Circles and not Your Readings?

You all speak of egos and how they need to be put aside when reading for others; maybe they need to be put aside when advising new tarot readers too.

Click to expand...

I'm not going to comment on the working mechanics of AT, which are a question for Solandia and her modding team. But I'd like to address the principle.

So often, you and I agree on issues, Sulis - but for this time, I disagree with you.

I think mentoring is a good thing, and I have a good reason for thinking this.

I had the privilege of being mentored. The lady who mentored me was a one-time very active member of this forum - she is still a member, just more of a lurker these days - but it wasn't here that she and I met and that she mentored me. We met on an artist forum, and discovered a shared interest in tarot. Mine quite young, hers more experienced. She mentored me in exactly the way mentoring is supposed to go. Mentoring is NOT teaching, nor is it dogmatic or egotistical. Mentoring brings together someone more experienced and someone less experienced so that the latter can develop with the help of the former in a relaxed, non-judgmental and personal way. I never felt Barb directed me, or that she wanted me to be her clone. I didn't see her as all wise, and she certainly didn't present herself as that! I knew then, as I know now, that we had different strengths in tarot. But she nurtured my talents and allowed them to flower, and by her example and gentle words, she taught me a lot about the ethics of reading (how to find my own line), about reading for people and about my own limits. She helped me develop my talents, not copies of hers. I thank her daily for many things, but that gift of mentoring stands pretty high on my list. Many years later, she told me about AT, and that is how I ended up her making your lives difficult

As I said, I am not stating categorically that this is possible on AT. But I don't really see why not, and the principle of mentoring is, I feel, exactly what we should be thinking about. Some kind of mentoring needs to be recognised - not least so that honest and experienced readers like Indigo Rose are not rudely shoved aside when she offers it.

As for who is experienced and "qualified" enough - I think we can learn a lot from the Yoruba way of doing things. The Elders and Babalawo are in charge of the education of the young, but teenagers also mentor younger children, people in their early 20s mentor the teenagers, and so on. It is a whole system. We are all wise at our own level: but we need to recognise that level. I see nothing wrong in acknowledging experience and using it for educational and mentoring purposes, quite the opposite. This trend of putting everyone on the same level has led to great and experienced talent (like Enrique's for example) going to waste on this forum, and nascent talent being unsufficiently nurtured. In all areas of life, experience counts, in tarot not less than in any other. And let's face it: some people are fantastic readers AND already unofficial mentors. It would be good to recognise it.


I also think that as tarot readers, we come with different life skills and background knowledge and that also goes into the pot. But at the end of the day, a newb is a newb and we all went through those early confusing moments when we asked ill-defined yes/no questions that we tried to answer with 25 cards. Someone needs to tell them that there are better and more efficient ways of answering their questions, that there are also more empowering ways of asking and answering questions and overall to be working with divination. THAT is all part of learning and growing as a diviner, and experienced diviners can do that. Very talented and experienced diviners can go beyond that: and some people on this forum fall in that category. This whole PC "but we're all equal and who is to know who's better and more experienced" is nonsense. Talent rises and is usually recognised by peers.


As for the topics covered: when it comes to reading for ourselves, we can read about anything. When it comes to reading for others, I'd say stick to easy topics during the early stages, but eventually you will be confronted with them all: if you have nurtured your talent well, and been well mentored, you will be able to tackle them. That is not to say you won't make mistakes - we all still make them. But if you remain humble throughout your reading career, even if you only ever read for friends and family, you'll find yourself growing as a diviner and very soon doing some mentoring of your own

I disagree with you, Fudu (no surprise there ! ) and also to some extent with Sulis, now that I see Fudu's post, which has moved me towards her POV even though I basically disagree ! (never let it be said that I am not schizoid....)

The issue that I would have is that there ARE people - well the one I immediately think of knew how to read (there is only one way) and - basically as a result - is no longer with us.... There are people who KNOW THEY KNOW. And among those are many who - frankly - don't. But many of them are exactly the type to leap to the plate and offer their mentoring services.

There are some EXCELLENT people on here who would be very good at the task - but they are often not going to be the people who would put themselves forward - not least because they are so often the ones who thing they aren't good enough ! Fudu was lucky to find a good mentor, as was I - I wasn't exactly mentored, but I was led into a good path for me by a smart person here, and I also know who will help if I PM them. But - well, a separate mentoring forum would indeed be a nightmare.

Then again - even I - who would be a CRAP mentor - have suggested to newbs that they would be better off in circles, for instance - and I don't see why that isn't OK..... And I still have major concerns about health readings. I have said why in some thread or other - but they can be damn dangerous. If people want to do law or finance - fine; that "only" leads to jail or bankruptcy at worst. But health - that's something else entirely.

Sulis said:

I also wonder when someone feels that they know enough about tarot, reading and everything that goes with it to become a 'mentor'. Just how do you know that you know enough?

Click to expand...

There I agree. I know I don't. BUT - leaving aside formal mentors - who is anyone to say I can't post one of my suggestions ? SOMETIMES (not often) I have a good idea.... Even one about tarot

All any of us can do is help where we can - and hope that people are not positively rude when they choose to disagree. If that's the response from someone - we are free not to offer help to that individual again, after all. If on the other hand we were their MENTOR when they were rude or plain dismissive - it would be far worse for both parties to have to say - heck, I cannot work with you, bye bye !

Applauding!

Yeah, what Fu said!

I've been sitting here through a lot of this thread feeling a little confused, thinking that I--who knows words pretty darned well---must have gotten rusty and used one without brushing up on it from a mind getting kind of lazy. I don't measure every word I say. I just say what I'm thinking and use whatever word comes to me, trusting it's a right one. Fu has put into words what I think mentoring is. It's not somebody standing at the front of the room speaking words that are to be committed to memory, jotted in notes, and considered the law. That's a teacher/professor. A mentor is someone who is further ahead on the road reaching back to give someone else a friendly hand along the way. They aren't taking the steps for the one being helped and they're not telling them how to take the steps, they're just saying "this is what I found helpful" and "this has been my experience" and letting the other person take the help or not while finding what works best for them.

I still don't think Solandia would want a forum for it and I think even if she did, there would be the danger of egos getting in the way. Seems like they always do, not just here but everywhere.

When I mentioned mentoring in the other thread, I meant it in the way Fu explained it. Just giving a helping hand here and there to a newer, more inexperienced person (or persons) just beginning instead of complaining and ranting and making people mad or making them feel inferior, wrong, unethical or stupid.

If you don't have time to help out that way or don't feel like doing it, aren't good at doing it, are guarding your reading secrets with rottweilers or whatever, then don't give a helping hand. But don't have fits when things don't go the way you think they should, either.

Using "you" generically here.

Sulis said:

So why do we need a new forum where 'the knowledgeable' will be set up as mentors?
This whole forum is a learning environment and I know that I for one have learned a lot from those who are new to this tarot reading lark.
I also know that I disagree with a lot of what I see written by those who claim to be experienced or know a lot on these forums. I'd hate to see some sort of official mentoring place where there are those 'who know' and those 'who learn'...

Click to expand...

You misunderstood what I was saying - but that is ok. It was merely a suggestion. Nothing more and nothing less. I did say that everyone learns from everyone else. Mentoring is not making one more than the other. IT helps both. If you aren't evolving and learning something each day then why live?

As with anything - you need to use your brain. You don't take someones teachings as the WORD. You take a little from here and a little from there and use what works. You discern what you deem of value and not.... sycophancy is not what I am advocating.

ETA: We we meet at our AT meetups - we each mentor each other. WE each show each other what we have learned. Last time Scion was giving us a tutorial on decans..... All of us watched and learned. And we each watched each other read! Newbies and Vets the like. That is mentoring - or at least what I think is mentoring. Umbrae is suggesting we do more of that kind of thing. Keep an eye out for one another. I agree.

gregory said:

I disagree with you, Fudu

Click to expand...

What is it you don't agree with? You are not clear about that, except on the idea of a separate mentoring forum, which I haven't suggested or endorsed. I think mentoring should run through the whole forum and address ethics and responsibility, as Umbrae points out, as well as the more usual technique(s) and talent nurturing.

These threads seriously are just endless...and mind numbing. Sorry for me its true.


So instead of having to constantly step in to supposed "newbs" which would then again bring up the assumption of are you calling newbs people who are knew to tarot. Years read etc blah blah Or this back and forth about ethics and everything else. We all have our own thoughts.


why not just put a thread.

HEY PEOPLE. WATCH HOW YOU WORD THINGS. USE SOME COMMON SENSE.

BE CAREFUL OF HEALTH, FINANCE AND LEGAL QUESTIONS.

USE YOUR BRAINS. IT IS NOT WRITTEN IN STONE THAT YOU WILL DIE.

IF YOU DISREGARD COMMON SENSE IT IS YOUR PROBLEM DON'T BLAME THE READER

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU ASK YOU MAY NOT LIKE THE ANSWER

Then maybe give some examples.

Like a Surgeon Generals warning.

Fudugazi said:

What is it you don't agree with? You are not clear about that, except on the idea of a separate mentoring forum, which I haven't suggested or endorsed. I think mentoring should run through the whole forum and address ethics and responsibility, as Umbrae points out, as well as the more usual technique(s) and talent nurturing.

Click to expand...

More later as amiable discussion - but primarily this bit:

As for the topics covered: when it comes to reading for ourselves, we can read about anything. When it comes to reading for others, I'd say stick to easy topics during the early stages, but eventually you will be confronted with them all: if you have nurtured your talent well, and been well mentored, you will be able to tackle them. That is not to say you won't make mistakes - we all still make them. But if you remain humble throughout your reading career, even if you only ever read for friends and family, you'll find yourself growing as a diviner and very soon doing some mentoring of your own

Click to expand...

I do feel EXTREMELY strongly about medical readings. As you know !

I don't think you "will be able to tackle" everything, either. And that is all part of what Umbrae brought up in another thread - medicine, law and finance. Or - things we should avoid advising about. I do think there are some. I think you do not, unless I have misunderstood you ?

gregory said:

I do feel EXTREMELY strongly about medical readings. As you know !

I don't think you "will be able to tackle" everything, either. And that is all part of what Umbrae brought up in another thread - medicine, law and finance. Or - things we should avoid advising about. I do think there are some. I think you do not, unless I have misunderstood you ?

Click to expand...

OK. I thoroughly disagree with that point of view, but since I dealt with it on that other thread, I won't repeat my words here. Diviners deal with all topics - that comes with the territory.

Fudugazi said:

OK. I thoroughly disagree with that point of view, but since I dealt with it on that other thread, I won't repeat my words here.

Click to expand...

Exactly !