Demons can come?

[Morgane_49]

The only demon I ever invited to posess me was wearing boots and Levi's and rode a Harley-Davidson. Tarot had nothing to do with it.

No matter how hard I try, I can't get past THIS and say anything intelligent or worthwhile.

But I'm perfectly happy with that!

If my sister could perform an excorcism on me, she would. I think she's a little bit afraid of me, but I can live with that.

 

[Starshower]

Thank you for your informative answer, shaveling!
I've never come across anyone holding such (strange, to me) beliefs, which seem not to quite make sense to me. How can non-physical beings have memories, without brains, bodies or sensory experiences in a shared world in which to frame them?
Anyway, to stay on topic, I fail to see how stimulating one's imagination & creative thinking by looking at Tarot pictures of archetypal images representing all the vicissitudes of human life, our rites of passage etc can 'invite' these (imaginary?) beings to affect us negatively.
Don't most mainstream Christians believe we have free will, & that it is our intent & thoughts, words & actions that determine our personal morality? Doesn't believing that evil forces beyond our control can somehow control us without our agreement contradict this?
Doesn't facing up to our 'inner demons' (in the psychological sense) - facing up to our personal behaviours, thought processes, unconscious assumptions etc - which Tarot helps me do quite profoundly - assist us in our moral awareness, sense of agency, and self-development generally? And isn't developing a sense of responsibility a good thing for everyone?

I consider Tarot as a v important & helpful 'tool' for the above in all religions & none. What a shame that some people apparently feel bound & restricted by irrational superstitions that seem, imo, to contradict their own religions!

 

[Curtis Penfold]

Thank you for your informative answer, shaveling!
I've never come across anyone holding such (strange, to me) beliefs, which seem not to quite make sense to me. How can a non-physical being have memories, without sensory experiences in a shared world in which to frame them?

To put it briefly, spirits do have bodies. They're bodies are just nearly impossible for us to perceive.

Anyway, to stay on topic, I fail to see how stimulating one's imagination & creative thinking by looking at Tarot pictures of archetypal images representing all the vicissitudes of human life, our rites of passage etc can 'invite' these (imaginary?) beings to affect us negatively.

Ah, but see, uneducated Chrisitians don't know that THAT's how you view it. They associate Tarot with divination. Divination is then recognized, to an uneducated Christian, as connecting with spirits. Many Christians probably think that you think that you're connecting with spirits. Do you get what I'm saying? They don't know that you view it as a tool for utilizing intuition.

Don't most mainstream Christians believe we have free will, & that it is our intent & thoughts, words & actions that determine our personal morality? Doesn't believing that evil forces beyond our control can somehow control us without our agreement contradict this?

The logic, for some Christians, is that there are things that bring evil spirits into our lives, things that make it so much more difficult to have control over ourselves. Things like drugs.

Other Christians, well, they do believe the devil can suddenly possess you. But most Christians I've met believe the devil (or his companions) possess you because of things you've done to invite him into your life. Like Dracula. You got to open the door first.

Doesn't facing up to our personal behaviours, thought processes, unconscious assumptions etc - which Tarot helps me do quite profoundly - assist us in our moral awareness, sense of agency, and self-development generally? And isn't developing a sense of responsibility a good thing for everyone?

Um, I fail to see how that's relevant. Are you referring to devils taking away free agency? As I mentioned, most Christians would believe that you'd have to let the devil into your life, and you'll be judged for that.

I would have thought of Tarot as a v important & helpful 'tool' for the above in all religions & none. What a shame that some people apparently feel bound & restricted by irrational superstitions that seem, imo, to contradict their own religions!

It's not that what they believe contradicts their other beliefs, or that they don't know what they believe. It's just that, a lot of Christians really don't know what Tarot is. And they don't know how people view it.

Some don't care. They associate it with something bad, and you can't stop them from thinking that. But others think that you think you're communicating with spirits when you use Tarot. It's wrong, but if nobody tells them otherwise, than the problem is the lack of education, something even an atheist or agnostic has troubles with. Example: An atheist may think that you're trying to contact spirits with Tarot. Thus, they're skeptical about it's ability. However, if you explained that you're trying to get in touch with your intuition, well, maybe they'd be more accepting.

 

[Starshower]

Hmmm ... interesting reply. What very different cultures we inhabit, Curtis!
Whereas you find 'most Christians' believing 'the devil' can 'possess' you - I have never in my life in England met anyone who did (after literally decades of weekly attendance at many different types & denominations of churches, their classes & theology / philosophy / psychology readings, discussion groups, etc.)
Now I see how limited my apparently broad experience in fact was!

As for Tarot & 'divination' ... well yes, for me, it DOES help me see & connect with 'the Divine' (however I personally now define that concept.)

However, I cannot make sense of the 'demon' idea in this supposedly more enlightened age. It seems to indicate concepts of interactions with external, incorporeal, individual 'spirits' who govern our actions & can handily be blamed for our faults & sicknesses.
Hey, I've just thought - weren't there 'demons' 'possessing' the 'madman' Legion - whom we now see as a poor chap suffering from schizophrenia? How sad & negative a world-view prevailed in those days! So glad we've moved on.

Many thanks for this opportunity to learn & expand my understanding of how some 'religious' people choose to frame their experiences, sometimes even denying mental illnesses or offloading personal responsibility for bad behaviours. Blessings!


eta: I've never found anyone to NOT be accepting - & even v interested - in my Tarot fascination & collection of decks & books! I'll try to explain it as you suggest, though it seems unneccessary, since no-one I chat with - even several priests in my town - has a problem with it.

 

[Dancing Bear]

I agree starflower
the word Demon being used in todays day and age does seem a bit archaic..
And yet i know many people who you do still believe in them. funny thing for me to wrap my head around!!

as soon as i see the word or hear the word being used,,Demon.. i get a flash of the medieval days,and the courts persecuting some poor soul, and accusing the persecuted of being possessed by demons.. and they must be burnt at the stake..

 

[gregory]

What this is all about is fear, I think. What we fear (this goes back to, but is not about, the walking at night stuff ) is that which we try to prevent others doing, so that we can justify our irrational fears to ourselves. Many who pull these stunts ("you will go to the devil/be mugged/die") are afraid that that will happen to THEM if they do whatever it is they are telling you not to do - often something they would quite like to try but dare not - so they project their fears on to you, in the hopes that you will validate them.

They don't always even realise this when they say these things - but - Christians who believe in hell are afraid of going there, so they will warn you how not to....

I generally point out that as I feel the cold, hell is OK with me.....

As I started to say late last night but referenced the walking at night thing - we need to reclaim our territory. We are not afraid of the cards - we must not let others tell us we should be - or fear wins.

 

[Curtis Penfold]

Hmmm ... interesting reply. What very different cultures we inhabit, Curtis!
Whereas you find 'most Christians' believing 'the devil' can 'possess' you - I have never in my life in England met anyone who did (after literally decades of weekly attendance at many different types & denominations of churches, their classes & theology / philosophy / psychology readings, discussion groups, etc.)
Now I see how limited my apparently broad experience in fact was!

I should mention that my experience with Christians is of course limited, and when I said most, I mean most that I talk to. And my experience is limited. My largest association would be with small town Christians and Mormons in America, but I do talk extensively about religion and go to a variety of services as well.

Generally, I find the idea of possession to be believed as a rare occurence, something that happens in extreme situations. The Catholic church refuses to give an exorcism without a person first going to a counselor. Some individuals believe that mental illnesses give demons a venue to enter people.

But I can seriously say that most Christians I've spoken with believe that demons have an influence in our lives, the same way at drug dealer or corporation has influence on other lives. It's not to take away free agency.

eta: I've never found anyone to NOT be accepting - & even v interested - in my Tarot fascination & collection of decks & books! I'll try to explain it as you suggest, though it seems unneccessary, since no-one I chat with - even several priests in my town - has a problem with it.

Like I said, I can't speak for where you're from, but I do find that to be very interesting. I've met Christians who believe too much education is a bad thing. It's a dieing worldview, but one that stands in the back of people's minds that I've met.

I think most Christians, if you explained what Tarot was, would have as much of a problem with it. But if they think that you're using it like people use Wigi Boards, as in to connect with spirits, than of course they're going to take issue with it. It's all about education and communication. Small town Christians (as well as many Utah Mormons) have limited contact with people of differing beliefs, so convincing many of them that Tarot is different than the way they've been taught, well, in my opinion, that may be very difficult.

It is exciting to hear differently. You know, to hear, like you said, that many ministers would be supportive of something that is obviously not evil.