Five of Swords

mythos

I'm looking here at the 'Original' Waite ... how 'original' it is is a matter of conjecture, but the sky is white, and the clouds are torn brownish colours. Clearly, the 'cloud' of confusion has been torn away, but it is still sharp-edged, cutting, and unsettled. For me, the little guy in the middle is feeling the sense of shame that goes with a defeat. He stand's close to the water, which is choppy, reflecting disturbed feelings ... Is he going to throw himself in?

The guy on the left, whose coloured in red, yellow and orange, looks to me like he has dropped his sword, and said to himself "This is not a fight that I want to be involved in. This guy wants to win so much, that he can have the victory. I 'know' that the victory exists in attitude of mind. For me, I have made a decision to leave this situation. I will feel neither defeat nor shame ... I choose to walk away. I can always return another day, if the need arises. There are other ways to win a battle ... and sometimes you have to decide whether it is a battle that is worth fighting!"

The big guy in the foreground, obviously so deeply needs to win that he will do whatever it takes ... fair means or foul. Is that a win? In his mind 'yes'! ... but, as someone said, pride goeth before a fall.

For me, 5's are about change. The dynamics between the three people have changed ... only time will tell how each will fair. That is why, in a reading, I always ask the querent which figure they identify with and why?

This, too, is what Isabel Radow Kliegman (I think) calls a separation card. The two lines indicate that the action is occurring on a 'stage' ... is a sense it is not 'real-life' but an act. It is separated from the wholeness of all situations. In this case, it is separated from the emotional repercussions of the action (the sea) and from the mountains (the climb to the heights of understanding).

So, my reading of it really depends more on which figure the querent identifies with, why and how the card interacts with the others in a spread.

mythos
 

ArcanoMáximo

mythos,
i agree with you but i don't understand quite good this:
"The two lines indicate that the action is occurring on a 'stage' ... is a sense it is not 'real-life' but an act. It is separated from the wholeness of all situations" Can you explain better please?
 

light2000

shadar

Just me, but I think Light was speaking to our being too close to the reading when we need to take a step back and look at it in relation to the other cards.

yes it was what i said. thanks shadar.
your questio:

I just got the 5 and the 7 swords in a spread. What does that mean?

is like sulis said :
Shandar, what were the positions? Or better still, why not post the whole reading in My Readings and see what folk have to say.
 

ArcanoMáximo

ok, i don't know if it's me but i don't really undestand about what are you speaking around, but i haven´t any problem. Hey! we are here to exchange opinions:). Ligth 2000 eu respeto e gosto muito de seus " post", nao tenho nenhuma coisa pra dicer de seus comentarios, voce pode ter a opinion que deseje, e quero le agradecer por ler o meus post também, tudo joia!!!O brigado para Shandar da misma maneira!!!Olhe so como a gente e boa aquí, se preocupando por nois!( falho portugués porque moro muito perto do Brasil).
Até logo entao!
 

mythos

ArcanoMáximo said:
mythos,
i agree with you but i don't understand quite good this:
"The two lines indicate that the action is occurring on a 'stage' ... is a sense it is not 'real-life' but an act. It is separated from the wholeness of all situations" Can you explain better please?

Hey Maximo,

This is a part of an article that I started to write about the 'separation' cards, but never finished.

Isabel Radow-Kliegman, in her book, Tarot and the Tree of Life, refers to a number of cards in the minor arcana as ‘separation cards’. There are eleven easily identifiable cards in all, (four Pentacles, three swords, three Wands & two Cups) and two others ( two and seven of Wands) which, although they do not as obviously fit the bill, could be concluded as separation cards also.

Separation Cards in the Waite Deck:

Aces 0 -
Twos 4 Wands, Cups, Swords, Pentacles
Threes 0 -
Fours 2 Wands, Pentacles
Fives 1 Swords
Sixes 1 Pentacles
Sevens 2 Swords
Eights 1 Pentacles
Nines 1 Wands
Tens 2 Wands, Cups

The primary visual feature of a separation card is the division between foreground, on which most of the action occurs, and the remainder of the card – the environment.

So what then, is the meaning of this separation?

In Kliegman’s words regarding separation cards and with reference to the Two of Pentacles:

“The two of pentacles is the first of what I will call the separation cards. Unlike most of the figures in the minor arcana, the figure in the two is not pictured in the landscape, but on a stage before it. He has literally separated himself from action … the separation represented in the Two of pentacles is more than just physical. It is not that the figure merely happens to be set apart from the sea. The isolation feels existential, a deep truth about the very existence of the juggler."

I hope that helps Maximo... for the five of swords, my feeling is that the action - finished fight - creates an isolation for all the figures from the 'realities' of life. A fight is a very isolating situation in which you forgo questions of your existence (life or death) in the heat of the action. You are separated from the 'normal' world. Think of a war zone - like Iraq - we, who are not in it, can make comment, have opinions, but can never feel what it is actually like to live, or fight in such circumstances. Moreover, for the soldiers who return, have been so intrinsically changed by their experience, that they can never relate to what is perceived by we who have not experienced the brutality, breakdown of taboos about taking lives and so on, in the same way ever again. Life is forever changed.... existentially they are isolated. As, are those who have lived through the ordeal - the people whose lives are torn to shreds by war.

You can apply the notion of separation to the other cards. For example, the two of cups - the first feeling of being 'in love'. Being 'in love' is like a madness which separates us from 'normal' reality. ... And so on.

If this hasn't explained it better .... I apologise. It must be difficult when you are having to think and write in a second language. I suppose you could call that a 'separation' experience too!

mythos
 

ArcanoMáximo

thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanks!!!!!!!!!!

mythos
you have explained it PERFECT, thank you very much for your time and energie. Before i understood the words but not the meaning. In other threads someones said in those cards there is a "stage" but no one realize why Pixie made that, but you have gave me a lot of ligth here!!! This is why i'm so proud of you people, and why i decide to join you despite the language!!:)
Thank you again!
 

mythos

Glad to be of help. I, too, learn so much here from so many amazing people on the group, but have the good fortune to be an english-speaker. Mind you, there are so many beautiful languages in the world, and so often I find a site that I can't read because I don't know the language. While I learnt both French and German in school .... that was 35 years ago and I don't remember much. I've not travelled to Europe ... only Asia and India, though I often watch German movies on television, the occasional Spanish, Turkish and Iranian movies - these are my favourites. Of course, subtitles only tell part of the story! And, of course, I watch Australian movies .... but then I'm an Australian, so I prefer them LOL.

mythos
 

shandar

5 and 7

I have been doing a lot of readings about an important job interview that I wanted. I got it. I wish I had written down the spread, but didn't because I was in a reading frenzy :(

I know we shouldn't do that, but I did. Just some additional insight. I was doing the I ching as well, and the oracle got so fed up with me she finally said to stop bothering her. This was her final message to me.

The first consultation informs
The second and third show disrespect
Disrespect deserves no information

*ouch* Needless to say, I stopped asking questions.

Anyone with a reading on how my interview will go, I would really appreciate it.
 

firecatpickles

This looks like a good place to link this thread: About five of swords and seven of swords.

The 5 of Swords reminds me of kindergartners playing. And I think to a large extent this card is about disagreement (gently reminded by some of the posts going back and forth in this thread ;) ), but also about decisions.

Obviously the person in the forgournd is not playing fair, he has three swords and the other two had only one apiece. Rather than pout or cry about it, the figure walking away has decided, "This person is an idiot, I am just going to leave." The figure in the back is crying over it, over spilled milk as far as I'm concerned.

Has anyone heard this card referred to as "improbity" before? Improbity is the success one gains through ill-gotten means. Children often resort to this to get what they want; ergo, sometimes they tear down a fellow classmate's house of cards and storm off with their own deck to go play Go-fish with someone else who will tolerate them.

Perhaps this card is about knowing when to quit, as well. The querent; another unique aspect to this card; is the one on the left, walking, in exasperrated steed, away from the improbity of the cheater wth the three swords -bringer of sorrow.

The crying figure is the second choice the querent has (Note how both of the "defeatees" are dressed similarly if not identically), you can cry over it, or deal with it by simply walking away. This card to me means to choose your fights wisely and to know when to quit.

KK