Is the Tarot Pre-Christian?

[Rosanne]

Thank you KariRoad for coming back and explaining your theory about pre Christian Tarot. In one sense I was like you in this belief. I was sure the abjad of the Phoenicians explained Tarot. Well it can if you make a squeeze. It can explain many universal truths- which is why Tarot is used these days for reading.
What changed me was I was given a most beautiful illuminated book with commentary on the Hebrew Alphabet. The author believed if correctly understood the alphabet was a primer for life- Ethical conduct- religious guidance, and philosophical ideas all contained and explained by these letters.
The author believes the letters are the array of spiritual forces through which God articulates his will in creation. Now it corresponds up to letter 7 with Tarot then the whole thing goes to poo and you have to alter everything to fit.
All these things/ideas/theories are always a squeeze to fit Tarot. Even as astrology and astronomy is altered to fit- as you can see with old Man time and Saturn. The Hermit from the Visconti is not Old Man time in the conventional way. Nothing ever quite fits. There is one thing that also does not quite fit in the 15th Century- the Miracle/Mystery/Church plays they are quite warped too. To me this is the logical base for a game- not the Egyptians or even before them. I can fit the 22 cards into Maori Cultural heritage as well. They have almost the same theology as the Egyptians and people sometimes believe the Maori came originally from Egypt. I believe that we can take Tarot and shape it into any culture- in fact it has been shaped into Native Indian Culture as a theme- does not mean that Tarot actual physical origins are any earlier than the 15th Century Italy.
I enjoyed what you posted- please keep posting.
~Rosanne

 

[Melanchollic]

Irish Nuns and Priests used to be more pagan than Odin and more Catholic than the Pope. I can remember a priest in confession telling me a Leprechaun told Saint Anne (Books) that I was reading unsuitable books. Put the fear of Christ into me for about one week. Things morph- always have- always will.

That was all of Catholic Europe. Folkish Pagan ideas simply became Western Christian culture. Trying to say this is Pagan, and that is Christian is a bit like trying to figure out if a fireman who loves to sing is actually a fireman or a singer.

I sure hope the Leprechaun didn't tell Saint Anne about the magazine I had under my bed!!

 

[Huck]

Hi Huck,

I certainly agree Saturnalia has influenced both the choice of date and some customs of the Nativity Feast, though I'm not convinced Father Time, aka Saturn is the 'model' for Saint Nicholas. Oddly, I still think Saint Nicholas is the model for Saint Nicholas.

In German language we've a Nikolaus AND a Weihnachtsmann ... .-) ... two make more than one, that's definitely an advantage, from the perspective of the children. ... .-)

Weihnachtsmann is a term used after the rise of the Protestants.

The traditions of "Father Christmas" did not exist as celebrations for December 24 until after the split in the Church. These traditions are taken from the Feast of Saint Nicholas, which is held on December 6th. (Saint Lucy's Feast is December 13th.) While the Protestants wanted to do away with the Saints, they couldn't bear to part with good St. Nicholas, so they made him part of Christmas. These days devote Protestants in the US fuss about how the Feast of the Nativity should be focused on Christ, not Santa Claus. Ironic, since it was the Protestants themselves who made him part of Christmas.

German Wikipedia: The (German) protestants used a "Heiliger Christ" first and the day for the presents was 25th of December (both initiated by Luther himself possibly). The "Heiliger Christ" was modified into a "Christkind" (a sort of Angel child) ... the Christkind invaded catholic regions, the protestants then thought, that it was a catholic custom, and the protestants took the Weihnachtsmann ... .-) ... the Christkind now dominates mainly in catholic region.

There's a figure, which is much older than any American or German Weihnachtsmann
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ded_Moroz
"at first he stole children and brought them away in his gigantic sack. To ransom the kids, their parents had to give him presents. However, with the lapse of time, everything turned upside down: under the influence of Orthodox traditions Father Frost reformed, became kind and started to give presents to kids. Then he adopted certain traits from the Dutch Sinterklaas (or Saint Nicholas), the prototype of the Santa Claus."

That even sounds a little bit like Kronos.

If, as you say, the Father Christmas emerged after reformation, why have then the diversity of Papa Noel's (or similar) in different catholic countries their existence?
"including France (Père Noël), Spain (Papá Noel), Catalonia (Pare Noel), Malta (Santa Klaus), Brazil (Papai Noel), Portugal (Pai Natal), Italy (Babbo Natale), India (Christmas Father) and Romania (Moş Crăciun)"

Summarizing we have, if St. Nicolaus or Weihnachtsmann or Saturn or Father Christmas or Father Winter or Father Frost a series of "old men" in combination with a child, which let's me assume, that the basic meta idea is "Father Time", cause the period is arranged around winter solstice and this symbolizes "end" and "restart" at one moment ... and the whole symbol comes from the idea "time observation". So the "old man" is necessary, and the "child" is also a necessary element to fulfill the pattern. Mythical names or individual personal elements have only secondary function, just a matter of "local customs" and the current variation.

**************

Saturn is a complex figure with different origin and influences:

Satre ... an Etruscan god
Chronos ... as personification of time
Saturn ... the planet
Kronos ... the children eating titan, actually a god of rain

The mythological quality of Satre is more or less unknown. So its not clear, what he presented in the year 45 BC, when it is assumed, that the Saturnalia started (actually hard to imagine, that the Romans had nothing around the winter solstice time before).

Actually English Wikipedia tells, that ...

"Saturnalia was introduced around 217 BCE to raise citizen morale after a crushing military defeat at the hands of the Carthaginians."

German Wikipedia tells:
"Die Saturnalien waren zunächst nur ein römischer Festtag zu Ehren des Gottes Saturn, der ursprünglich als EN-Tag am 17. December gefeiert wurde und nach der julianischen Kalenderreform den Tagescharakter auf einen NP-Status wechselte. Die Saturnalien fanden erst nach 45 v. Chr. als mehrtägiges Fest zwischen dem 17. und 23. Dezember Anwendung, das später allerdings bis zum 30. Dezember ausgedehnt wurde."

Well, this tells, that there had been a 1-day-feast at 17th of December in honor of the Saturn (English Wikipedia tells, that this happened 217 BC). It developed to become a seven-days-feast in 45 BC, which was later extended to 14 days.
With difference to that what I earlier said, I see now, that English wikipedia also mentions a later six days period, but not the later extensions to two weeks.
The Saturnalia had been mainly a slave festivity (possibly at its major start in 45), as the Roman masters served their slaves in this time (and distributed presents), to make them willing to serve a further year for their masters.

There was a year 146 BC with a battle of Korinth, which is given as the start of Greek slaves influences on the more primitive Roman mind, but surely this happened not from today till tomorrow, but took generations.

Comparing the different sources of information, it seems clear, what's the background. The Romans around 217 hadn't (likely) not many slaves. But the number increased, possibly partly with the deciding battle of Korinth ... with the time the status of the long-time-slaves improved and it became necessary to balance the society, so installed holidays for slaves appeared. These were given naturally in winter (cause of bad weather and short daylight). Later it seems to have become necessary to increase the holidays from one week to two weeks.

The astrological Saturn (based on the Satre figure) appeared likely in the second century BC, likely before a Greek Kronos with his critical preference for children could invade Roman mind.
In 217 happened the definition of 17th December = Saturn days ... too early to have Kronos in mind, I would say.

The mixing of Chronos (Time) and Kronos (Titan) appeared already in antique sources (but not generally).

**********

Actually I should control, when really the Greek myths started to become accepted by the Romans.

 

[Melanchollic]

German Wikipedia: The (German) protestants used a "Heiliger Christ" first and the day for the presents was 25th of December (both initiated by Luther himself possibly). The "Heiliger Christ" was modified into a "Christkind" (a sort of Angel child) ... the Christkind invaded catholic regions, the protestants then thought, that it was a catholic custom, and the protestants took the Weihnachtsmann ... .-) ... the Christkind now dominates mainly in catholic region.

I've always loved this German custom of the Christkind. Especially when the young lovely women put on the gold gowns with wings, the shimmering halo-crowns, and those flowing blond wigs. Somebody... Give me some MISTLETOE!!

The Christkind Angel - Bringing out German men's inner devil since 1536.​

If we really wanted to spoil the kiddies, we could have St. Nick bring presents on St. Nicholas' Day, Christkind on Christmas, and the Three Magi on Epiphany.

OR we could just give them to Krampus!!! Whaaa ha ha ha ah ha ha....

Not what little Johnny expected!!​

 

[Bernice]

KariRoad:

.....snip....

Monthu "Nomad" (the old sun god)
VIIII Le Hermite LEO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monthu

Due to the precession of the equinoxes, the vernal equinox 'moved' from Leo to Aries, from Monthu to Amun.

Amun (the new sun god)
later associated with the ram
V Le Pape ARIES
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amun

Others which may be seen:

Thoth XII Le Pendu LIBRA
Tefnut XIIII Temperance SCORPIO
Isis X La Roue de Fortune VIRGO
Sopdet XVIIII Le Soliel PISCES
Maat VIII Justice CANCER
Anubis XVI La Maison Dieu CAPRICORN

Khonsu VII Le Chariot GEMINI
contrasting
Min XV Le Diable SAGITTARIUS

Any thoughts for Taurus and Aquarius? I shouldn't be having all the fun. Plus, many specific details relate exactly between the Egyptian association and the Tarot that have no Christian correlation.

Tarot would precede Egyptian culture (as I indicated) and what we now call Greek culture began, to a significant extent, as an Egyptian colony. The later Greeks derived their astrology from ancient sources, so it wasn't home grown to begin with, but imported, just as much of Egyptian culture originally migrated to the Nile region. So a good question here might be, what inspired the Dendra Zodiac?

Italian Tarocchi comes down to us as fragmentary bits of paper, from regions
that would of course be pre-Italian (another topic perhaps).

The more I think on this the more unlikely it seems. The one thing that has survived in the Trump cards since the 1400s is the basic iconography (the imagery) - with some deviation in one or two cards in a few historical decks. In contrast, the 'meaning' of images change over time, and tarot-wise the R-W-S cards and clones are changing them still. Although it can be said that they never had any Meaning aside from their values in card games.

If the 22 trionfi cards were migrants from Egypt, I cannot see the graphic semblence to the egyptian hiroglyphs which you have suggested.

You are also saying (or implying) that astrological knowledge was included or embedded in the images of this ancient sequence of 22 cards.

But I do wish you would clarify exactly what you mean when you use the word "tarot", so that we are on the same page.Do you mean the 22 trumps? Because as has been said, it was/is the French for the Italian Tarocchi, and is the name for a full 78 card deck. A very recent name as centuries go, so not everso ancient like cave paintings.


Bee

 

[KariRoad]

Hi Bee

tarots

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition | 2008 | The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright 2008 Columbia University Press.

tarots , playing cards that are used mainly for fortunetelling, sometimes called "the book of divination of the Gypsies." It is generally believed that the cards were introduced into Western Europe by the Gypsies in the mid-15th cent. There is much conjecture about their origin. The pack of 78 cards is divided into the minor arcana, or 56 pictorial cards that roughly resemble the modern deck of 52 cards: wands (clubs), cups (hearts), swords (spades), and pentacles (diamonds). Each of the four suits comprises 14 cards, 10 numbered from ace to 10 and 4 court cards—king, queen, knight, and page. The 22 additional pictorial cards, called the major arcana, are numbered from zero to 21. The pictures on the 78 cards are allegorical, representing forces of nature and the virtues or vices of man. Interpretations and ways of determining the meanings of the cards vary greatly.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/tarots.aspx

It's odd that a thorough presentation of any research which differs from the "card game" theory (which depends entirely on pieces of paper surviving from the Apian peninsula) meets with repetitions of late 20th century conjectures based on same. What does the Columbia Encyclopedia's definition lack so far as legitimacy? And yet, how would it be received as quoted above?

 

[Rosanne]

Hi KariRoad!
That article is mainly wrong. I would not call it legitimate. It is exactly as many books trot out. The bibliography is taken from ...
1. Barbara Walker Tarot creator http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/barbara-walker/

2. Neither the two books cited are scholarly and rely on meanings taken from the RWS created in 1909 and do not rely on those pieces of paper from the Apian Penisular. (which actually was pasteboard not paper)

Some of those myths in the encyclopedia have been thoroughly debunked.
It is not generally believed Tarot is used mainly for Fortune telling. There are Europeans who still use the deck for game playing as it was originally intended.
The dates for the gypsies transmitting tarot are all out of kilter with what is known.There was not pictorial 56 cards in the original Tarot. This article is not authoritative in my opinion. It is same old lines that you get in many books unfortunately, and just promulgates the myths of Tarot History.
I have never seen anything that looks like Tarot pre 1340 and that is early.
I am including in that, fresco and carving from Egypt, ancient alphabet and early calendars. If you have seen something that looks like Tarot/Tarrochi/Trionfi I would love to see it.
~Rosanne

 

[Bernice]

KariRoad: It's odd that a thorough presentation of any research which differs from the "card game" theory (which depends entirely on pieces of paper surviving from the Apian peninsula) meets with repetitions of late 20th century conjectures based on same.

But Kari, neither you nor the book you cite present a Thorough Research of the development of the cards which are now called Tarot!

As I said in a previous post;

"The last century (20th) saw many potboiler books about the tarot cards, so it is no surprise that many people have convoluted &/or confused ideas about it's origin. There are many threads here in the History forums and at the link that Prudence gives, which will surely clarify how, where, and when the 'tarot' began."

Kudos for sticking to your guns, but citing erronous material gives no support at all to your theory. The difference between the recent (century-wise) RWS and the orginal 'tarots' is very, very, obvious. Can you state which deck you are drawing these ideas from?


Bee

 

[KariRoad]

Hi Bernice,

Rather than me actually "citing" the Columbia Encyclopedia (as if I were endorsing it) my point was merely to give an example of available information, and in this case from a preeminent source, an established reference, available in numerous schools and libraries.

Having any other expert research available on the subject therefore, is merely equivalent to presenting another point of view, and the final authority on which is "more correct" and which is "convoluted or confused" becomes a matter of personal choice.

Facts are subjective things, and like statistics may be applied in such a way as to "prove or disprove" almost any viewpoint. Some people say Tarot was developed as a game in the region of modern Italy during the 14th century CE. Equally, for whatever reason, many people claim that Tarot is of a Christian origin. Taken together, that rules out about 99% of the available possibilities, and so in a way the Columbia Encyclopedia leaves more room for "correctness" by being significantly more flexible in its presentation of possibilities.

I have my own specific point of view, but it is flexible (and generous) enough to allow that during the 14th century CE there were Tarots being used for games of chance in the region of modern Italy. But I also have a very definite opinion that there is much more to the complete picture, as easily available as looking at the "Italian" cards themselves: the gods must be crazy!?!

[a pilot finishes a Coke bottle and throws it out of his plane. It lands right in front of Xi]

Narrator: One day, something fell from the sky. Xi had never seen anything like this in his life. It looked like water, but it was harder than anything else in the world. He wondered why the gods had sent this thing down to the earth.

[Filled with wonder, Xi examines the bottle and takes it home to his tribe]

Narrator: It was the strangest and most beautiful thing they had ever seen, and they wondered why the gods had sent it. Pabo got his finger stuck in the thing, and the children thought he was very funny.

KariRoad

 

[Bernice]

Thank you for responding to my post Kari, but did you not read Rosannes?

That article is mainly wrong. I would not call it legitimate. It is exactly as many books trot out. The bibliography is taken from ...

1. Barbara Walker Tarot creator http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/barbara-walker/

2. Neither the two books cited are scholarly and rely on meanings taken from the RWS created in 1909 and do not rely on those pieces of paper from the Apian Penisular. (which actually was pasteboard not paper)

Some of those myths in the encyclopedia have been thoroughly debunked.

It's advisble to check out source references before believing them. There are a great many books on the market which quote from unreliable sources, which in turn are copied by persons who have not bothered to examine or investigate the declarations.

If in doubt about a source material, there are helpful members here who are familiar with dubious 'information' as it's likely they have come across it in their studies. I appreciate that they share this with seekers - it saves a lot of wasted time.


Bee