Need insight regarding the Courts corresponding dual element

[Ruby Jewel]

I actually did this in a huge astrological layout on my living room floor, except that the astrological Trumps are those associated with my natal chart (so Death/Scorpio is on the Ascendant, and so forth around the wheel; the ascending degree is actually in the 3rd decan of Scorpio and the culminating degree is in the 2nd decan of Virgo). Here's the picture. But I used the Thoth correspondences and the Chaldean decans with traditional rulers (no Pluto), in which the Knight (King) of Cups is predominantly Pisces. The Prince of Cups is mostly Scorpio.

WOW!! I'm impressed. That is so cool. it would be interesting to lay that out on a table or board and leave it. Then find 2 sets of replicas of all the planets and place one set in the proper decans of their signs.....and rotate the 2nd set around as they transited your chart.....keeping track of all the transits and conjunctions, etc....that would even be an interesting game to invent.....if you were up for it....there's nothing like a visual picture to make something perfectly clear.

I could never get by with it at my house because of my 4 cats (laugh).

 

[Freyja of V]

Actually, the Thoth Knights are the "fiery" part of their element, and the Princes are the "airy" part, as stated in the "Summarized Description" section of the Book of Thoth. Knight = Yod = Fire; Queen = He = Water; Prince = Vau = Air; Princess = final He = Earth. The Thoth Knights replace to "old style" Kings and the Thoth Princes replace the "old style" Knights. As far back as 1912, Crowley noted "the Kings are now called Knights."

I know...I mistakenly stated Knights/air.
Like I said I read a lot and read that GD changed the order to the Knight being the Queen's consort, Uncle Al (as I have read elsewhere) kept it and Uncle Art changed it back to how the Marseille ranked them.

I'm sorry you took the time to write all that, but I appreciate it.
I have to say although I wrote that I've decided to read RWS as Kings/Fire, as the father, and highest rank (instead of being the prince)...I honestly am still going back and forth. I'm going to let it settle for a bit.

Instead I am focusing on some of the astrological correspondences, and even read a little about Kabbalah, the four worlds, and the sepheroth they reside in as well as Jung's four functions. I would like to really dive into the the four elements, four humours, and temperaments more and how they affect each other, to further understand their traits.

Again, thank you for pointing in out, I will edit if I stil can.
Freyja

 

[Freyja of V]

I think what really helps to characterize the Court Cards is when you put them in their respective houses with their Ruling Planets, and the Major Arcana cards that fall under the planetary domains. It is a real eye opener. For instance, the King of Cups becomes Scorpio with Death and Judgment in the 8th house of death, sex, and shared resources under Pluto....the 4th house just didn't fit the King of Cups as Cancer because it is the mother's house....the Moon which also is the mother. The King as Scorpio, fits the 8th house he is in....sex, death, resources.

What interested me is how the Devil winds up in the 10th house with the World......which is a major power house on the midheaven ruled by Saturn who rules Capricorn and we all know how powerful the Devil is. The book I'm referencing is "Tarot and Astrology" by Corrine Kenner.

Wow! Although I really appreciate your advice, it's just too much for me at this time. I'm in information overload. I don't know anything about astrology and only this weekend read up on it really for the first time. In fact one of the books was Corrine Kenner's. I do want to learn more about the signs and what their personalities. I'll start there and then work up to other things like decans and houses.

I read about the Cardinal, Fixed, and Mutable signs and chose which I thought fit with the K,Q and KN and thought, great, that will really help add another layer in a reading. I then I remembered that under GD the courts are assigned 20 degrees one sign and 20 another (and I think 10 something else). What?? Well, which is it. Which do I follow?

In fact when I first was reading more about the Courts and their second element, I saw the 2 signs assigned to each court and thought that 's where the second element came from because some actually matched (king/fire of..., queen/water of... etc) but then others didn't match. After reading all I read this weekend, I now know that the second element was given by the GD or so it's thought. It seems no one can find evidence of it before the GD.

God, it's soooo much!
This is why I thought I would wait until I felt comfortable enough with all the cards until I tried to add all this other esoterism. But, it's all very interesting and I'm excited to learn more...one at a time.
Thanks again ,
Freyja

 

[Ruby Jewel]

Wow! Although I really appreciate your advice, it's just too much for me at this time. I'm in information overload. I don't know anything about astrology and only this weekend read up on it really for the first time. In fact one of the books was Corrine Kenner's. I do want to learn more about the signs and what their personalities. I'll start there and then work up to other things like decans and houses.

I read about the Cardinal, Fixed, and Mutable signs and chose which I thought fit with the K,Q and KN and thought, great, that will really help add another layer in a reading. I then I remembered that under GD the courts are assigned 20 degrees one sign and 20 another (and I think 10 something else). What?? Well, which is it. Which do I follow?

In fact when I first was reading more about the Courts and their second element, I saw the 2 signs assigned to each court and thought that 's where the second element came from because some actually matched (king/fire of..., queen/water of... etc) but then others didn't match. After reading all I read this weekend, I now know that the second element was given by the GD or so it's thought. It seems no one can find evidence of it before the GD.

God, it's soooo much!
This is why I thought I would wait until I felt comfortable enough with all the cards until I tried to add all this other esoterism. But, it's all very interesting and I'm excited to learn more...one at a time. Thanks again ,
Freyja

Freyja, I do apologize for inundating you with so much esoteric information. I was not sure how familiar you are with astrology. I'm happy to hear you are interested in astrology and are pursuing it. I think you will find it most fascinating and well worth the effort it takes to become adept. I studied it for 2 years under a professional and it was one of the most productive and satisfying studies I have invested my time into.

Perhaps I can help a bit on your confusion regarding the degrees being split between two signs...hopefully I won't confuse you more. The signs run from approximately the 20th of one month to the 20th of the next month. The houses run from month-to-month under one sign. Both are a matter of 30 degrees, but the signs are 10 degrees in one month and 20 degrees in the next month; therefore, they wind up being 10 degrees in one house and 20 degrees in the next house on the astrological chart......it is okay if you don't get this right away because I know it is confusing. But, it will come at some point if you stick with the astrology studies. I wish you well on that endeavor.

 

[Freyja of V]

Freyja, I do apologize for inundating you with so much esoteric information. I was not sure how familiar you are with astrology. I'm happy to hear you are interested in astrology and are pursuing it. I think you will find it most fascinating and well worth the effort it takes to become adept. I studied it for 2 years under a professional and it was one of the most productive and satisfying studies I have invested my time into.

Perhaps I can help a bit on your confusion regarding the degrees being split between two signs...hopefully I won't confuse you more. The signs run from approximately the 20th of one month to the 20th of the next month. The houses run from month-to-month under one sign. Both are a matter of 30 degrees, but the signs are 10 degrees in one month and 20 degrees in the next month; therefore, they wind up being 10 degrees in one house and 20 degrees in the next house on the astrological chart......it is okay if you don't get this right away because I know it is confusing. But, it will come at some point if you stick with the astrology studies. I wish you well on that endeavor.

Ruby,
You have nothing to apologize about, you were trying to help me get a better handle on the Courts and I greatly appreciate any new information.
When I here about house/decans or say Moon in Scorpio, I'm just like...Huh? It's seems so complicated, so that's why I said Wow.

Your explanation of the 2 sign split really helped me make sense of it and your explanation wasn't confusing at all. I have seen a chart showing the courts overlapping 2 signs and I didn't know what it meant, so thank you for that.
Actually, I think you just helped to understand what Moon in Scorpio does mean. Because the signs are in different houses within their time frame, is that where that comes from?

May I ask: So it seems that you do not use the "Cardinal, fixed, mutable" sign for the courts and instead you go much deeper? Is that true?

If the answer is yes, this kind of reminds me of elemental dignities. A simpler way to read, is just fire, water, air, earth...but then you learn that Aristotle added the primary qualities making a little more complicated.

Also, if you read RWS, which system (for the second element) do you follow with the Courts and why? Or do you ignore it and just read the astrological correspondences?

That's something else...there are so many different correspondences: Kabbalah, Astrological, Jung, Alchemical, etc. How do you choose which to include in an interpretation. Is it even possible to include them all?

Like I said, Info overload. So please excuse my small rant at the end.
It is overwhelming but I am enjoying learning it.
Thanks again, Take care.
Freyja

 

[Barleywine]

That's something else...there are so many different correspondences: Kabbalah, Astrological, Jung, Alchemical, etc. How do you choose which to include in an interpretation. Is it even possible to include them all?

Information overload is certainly a risk, especially if the correspondences are tossed in willy-nilly; a "working plan" is advisable. If the instrinsic meaning of a card, either singly or in combination, isn't crystal-clear from its description or pictorial presentation, I look at its element first, followed by its traditional astrological associations - planet, sign, decan, quadrant, etc; next, I'll consider the nature of a card's number from a Pythagorean perspective; third, I'll look at the location of the card on the Tree of Life (and possibly its other qabalistic underpinnings); fourth, I'll examine what the colors on the card might reveal; and finally I take reversal into account. I don't do much with Jung, although his stamp on anything New Age is inescapable, with classical alchemy as a divinational tool, or with mythological and pagan symbolism. Not all of these find their way into the final interpretation; they're just exploratory inputs that I take into account. I call it "turning over rocks to see what crawls out from underneath."

 

[Beira]

Hello Freya.

And hello everyone!
I got a renewed interest about elements in the Tarot while doing Geer's 21 ways to read a tarot card with the Thoth Universe.
I am trying to get the classic definitions of the elements and made up my own idea of how they apply to suits/courts/majors, ecc.
But on the other hand I like to follow the rules meant for the deck I am reading at the moment.
For the Thoth I found very useful compare Crowley's dense writing with du Quette, that "translates" AC for poor mortals as myself.
After that semplification I am able to follow Crowley (mostly).
We could talk of what I have understood up till now and compare opinions since it is not the first time I read these books and I am fishing for information on the elements only, and the first mention of them happens to come with the Thoth Court cards.
In my notes I have given importance mostly on what Crowley meant with his deck, so I am not much into how things were before or why they got changed. Just as they are for him.
I plan to read about the elements in Waite's pictorial key to the Tarot since my other decks are RWS and Paulina (that is tricky, looks as RWS but I think there is more depth to it..) and find out how things were for him.
Plus I have John Dee's deck orphaned of the emperor but I would love to hear Queen Elizabeth I' s First Magician opinion over this..
Going over to conjure those friends up..

Let me know what yous read too, I would love to share knowledge here! I have done various study groups, but always years after they were completed. Sharing in real time will be great!

 

[Ruby Jewel]

Ruby,
You have nothing to apologize about, you were trying to help me get a better handle on the Courts and I greatly appreciate any new information.
When I here about house/decans or say Moon in Scorpio, I'm just like...Huh? It's seems so complicated, so that's why I said Wow.

Your explanation of the 2 sign split really helped me make sense of it and your explanation wasn't confusing at all. I have seen a chart showing the courts overlapping 2 signs and I didn't know what it meant, so thank you for that.
Actually, I think you just helped to understand what Moon in Scorpio does mean. Because the signs are in different houses within their time frame, is that where that comes from?

May I ask: So it seems that you do not use the "Cardinal, fixed, mutable" sign for the courts and instead you go much deeper? Is that true?

If the answer is yes, this kind of reminds me of elemental dignities. A simpler way to read, is just fire, water, air, earth...but then you learn that Aristotle added the primary qualities making a little more complicated.

Also, if you read RWS, which system (for the second element) do you follow with the Courts and why? Or do you ignore it and just read the astrological correspondences?

That's something else...there are so many different correspondences: Kabbalah, Astrological, Jung, Alchemical, etc. How do you choose which to include in an interpretation. Is it even possible to include them all?

Like I said, Info overload. So please excuse my small rant at the end.
It is overwhelming but I am enjoying learning it.
Thanks again, Take care.
Freyja

Moon in Scorpio is saying that the Moon was in the sign of Scorpio (between October 20 and November 20 approx.) the exact minute a person was born. In order to know that you would have to look their birthday up in an Ephemeris. (a book which logs all the planets on a daily basis at Greenwich, England). The moon moves through a sign very fast and so you cannot depend on it to apply to the day it enters or the day it leaves that sign as designated by the emphemeris...it must be calculated by a very complex method based on time zone and its distance from Greenwich, England....as do all the planets to determine the exact degree). So, Moon in Scorpio simply means it was in Scorpio when the person was born. The house it goes into is based on the degree of the planet and the beginning and ending degrees of the house cusps. The houses on the tarot chart do not use degrees for the planets or the houses. They just simply say, the 8th house is Scorpio, and therefore, the planet goes into the 8th house. In astrology, the houses proceed from the Ascendant. For instance, if you have a Scorpio ascendant then Scorpio moon could be split between the ascendant (first house) and the 12th or last house, depending on the degree of the ascendant and the degree of the moon and therefore fits into the house that encompasses that degree.

I do determine the court cards Queen (cardinal), King (fixed) and Knight (mutable) according their houses which are cardinal, fixed or mutable. The sign that receives the designation is the sign on that house according to the tarot chart (which does not take the ascendant into account) which is always based on the cardinal cross...meaning that the 1st, 4th, 7th and 10th houses are the cardinal houses. and since that makes Aries, Cancer, Libra, and Capricorn the Queens, Aries becomes the Queen of Fire (wands), Cancer the Queen of Water (cups), Libra the Queen of Air (swords) and Capricorn the Queen of Pentacles (earth). Each quadrant contains 3 houses: cardinal, fixed, and mutable, consecutively.

The categories for the aspects designated as "exalted", "fall", "dignified" or "detriment" are based on the planets and the sign they rule. In the tarot, therefore, it is necessary to know which planet rules which sign astrologically, and how it is welcomed by the planet it aspects. For instance, the Moon is dignified in its ruler, Cancer; exalted in Taurus (meaning it is powerful); detriment in Capricorn (weak); and fall in Scorpio (weak). Therefore, it is safe to say that the moon does not like Saturn which rules Capricorn, and it does not like Pluto which rules Scorpio....and it does like Venus which rules Taurus. So, this tells you something about Moon in Scorpio; namely, it is not happy because it is in its fall, therefore weak and debilitated.

The Kabbala system is based on the Tree of Life and the Jewish alphabet. That requires an in-depth knowledge in order to comprehend; as does the geocentric system. You will need to decide between those two. The other categories will fall under one or the other. I am most knowledgeable about the geocentric system and astrology.

By the way, decans are 10 degrees each. Since a house contains 30 degrees, there are 3 decans in each house. In astrology the decans are based on a sign which is also 30 degrees. Therefore, according to the sign, the decans are in two different houses.

So, now I suppose you are thoroughly confused, but at least you have something to think about for awhile. (laugh)

 

[Freyja of V]

Information overload is certainly a risk, especially if the correspondences are tossed in willy-nilly; a "working plan" is advisable. If the instrinsic meaning of a card, either singly or in combination, isn't crystal-clear from its description or pictorial presentation....
... Not all of these find their way into the final interpretation; I call it "turning over rocks to see what crawls out from underneath."

I completely agree about tossing correspondences in 'wildly-nilly' and I wouldn't do that. I want my interpretation to have more substance but I wouldn't use traditions/systems etc that I don't know enough about and try to wing it.

And there is so many ways to add extra layers that I really wondered which do you go with and your metaphor, "turning over..." is such a great one, it just summed it all up for me in one sentence. I am so grateful for that. When I read that, it all just clicked.

I am going to choose one type of correspondence to focus on, learn as much as I can and when I feel ready, move onto another one. That's how I learned the cards and it seemed to work much better.

Thank you so much for your posts and spending time helping me.
Best regards,
Freyja

 

[Freyja of V]

And hello everyone!
I got a renewed interest about elements in the Tarot while doing Geer's 21 ways to read a tarot card with the Thoth Universe.
I am trying to get the classic definitions of the elements and made up my own idea of how they apply to suits/courts/majors, ecc.
But on the other hand I like to follow the rules meant for the deck I am reading at the moment.
For the Thoth I found very useful compare Crowley's dense writing with du Quette, that "translates" AC for poor mortals as myself.
After that semplification I am able to follow Crowley (mostly).
We could talk of what I have understood up till now and compare opinions since it is not the first time I read these books and I am fishing for information on the elements only, and the first mention of them happens to come with the Thoth Court cards.
In my notes I have given importance mostly on what Crowley meant with his deck, so I am not much into how things were before or why they got changed. Just as they are for him.
I plan to read about the elements in Waite's pictorial key to the Tarot since my other decks are RWS and Paulina (that is tricky, looks as RWS but I think there is more depth to it..) and find out how things were for him.
Plus I have John Dee's deck orphaned of the emperor but I would love to hear Queen Elizabeth I' s First Magician opinion over this..
Going over to conjure those friends up..

Let me know what yous read too, I would love to share knowledge here! I have done various study groups, but always years after they were completed. Sharing in real time will be great!

Hi Beira,
I don't read Thoth, I read RWS deck and clones. I just purchased the Tarot Royale (previously known as Guilded Royale) by Ciro Marchetti and it is by far my favorite deck now. It's gorgeous and full of great symbolism.

I've been reading a lot about the elements (as you probably read) and I highly recommend the following books and sites:

Tarot Beyond the Basics by Anthony Louis
Beyond the Celtic Cross by Paul Hughes-Barlow

Hughes-Barlow owns the site - super tarot.co.uk and he reads Thoth, I think he expertly reads Thoth. His site used to have extensive info but he changed it and it doesn't seem be as deep. Although, I could be wrong. Take a look anyway.

He also has YouTube videos explaining the elements. I haven't watched them yet, but I am certain that they are amazing.

Sites:
Tarot Elements:
https://tarotelements.com/elemental-dignities/
Great Tutorial, definitely look at this!!

I hope this helps...Good luck with it all.
Freyja