Pre - Golden Dawn Decks

[Lady Iron Side]

Okay I've been reading one of Ronald Decker's book, I am now a bit confused, here is what he says: Many people use the Golden Dawn Associations, which are based on their Astrological associations, however decks older (pre Golden Dawn ) such as Visconti - Sforza, Cary Yale, Marseilles use Planetary or Mythological association with the trump cards, which could lead to different elemental associations.

Could some please explain this further, so then he's saying no elements as in fire, water, etc were used. so then how about the Aces no element energy is used, I am studying the Cary Yale deck, please post links as to where there might be thread pertaining to the Planetary system. and how I would read the cards/interpret. thanks

 

[Bernice]

I cannot comment on that extract of Decker you give as I don't have the book. But regarding reading with the historical decks, you might find this sticky thread helpful;

"Reading Methods - Marseilles and Other Historical Decks"
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=141823

For a very good historical approach, I would suggest 'Mels' Old Fashioned' method, it's at the above link. It's a complete system which lists every card.


Bee

 

[Lady Iron Side]

Thank you that threat is most helpful, lol I've gone printer happy

Edit:

Well after reading the method above (link) and comparing my interpretation to what I've been doing, then taking a long look at the cards that the Cary Yale deck had answered to me with, I got freak out so to speak, please anyone here that works with these older decks help explain.

here is link that happened to me tonight.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=152918

 

[Lady Iron Side]

This is what I was able to come up with using Mel's system, scroll to the bottom of this link, and review. share your opinions please

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=152008&page=2&pp=10

I now can move on and enjoy learning the Cary Yale deck. unless you have some valuiable information that I can add to my Associations of the cards or make a few corrections. again thank you

 

[Lady Iron Side]

Cary Yale Is a complete deck based on 10 , 7, 3

Well everyone, I don't know how to explain let alone tell you this, but I have made a revolation and it seem that this was missed, even by US game Kaplan

As some of you know I've been using Mel's method as a foundation to put meanings to the female knights and pages

while searching and reading up and some historical sources that Mel based his method on, as well as other source.

I am here to tell that the Cary Yale was and always was complete , there were never any missing cards in the (Major Arcana), but only 8 missing and reconstructed (Minor Arcana), the 3 of Coins, Male Page of Coin, Male Page of Swords, Male knight of Swords, Female knight of Cups, Male knight of arrows/Staves, Queen of Cups and last King of Staves.

The Majors are all there - is based on 10 - there are 11 original majors ( Prudence is Charity she hold the mirror in her left hand and nurses a child on her right, the chariot, emperor, empress, death, judgement, lover/choice/marriage , Hope is actually the sun Which has the Sun symbol in the top right corner, The Strength, the world, ) so now it's just a matter of putting them into the correct order of 1 - 10, 11 World - Center = (0) = 10 is perfectly circular, for all of its products end with the same cipher (0) the World really is 0 the(All)

then you have 3 virtues - based on 3 - hope faith charity

The deck was created based on the (Tretractys) and the 4 Virtues

the majors = The tetractys is the mystical arrangement of 1- 10 -= 10 completed majors = Pythagorean number mysticism.

Pythogoras extolled the 4 Virtues later called the Platonic Virtues, because the permeate the works of Plato Thence they descended to Roman Philosophers, such as: Cicero. St. Ambrose (c340-397) wrote a commentary that transmitted the 4 Virtues to the Middle Ages. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) used them to structure his entire Summa Theologica.

Eliphas Levi saw that the Pythogorean Decad was relevant to the Tarot Trumps, 1 through 10

The Triangle as the most simple polygon, represents basic manifestation in the conceptual realm, which ancient and medieval philosophers called the intelligible world. The sequence of the mystical Decad insists that more is: An increase in number is an increase in the distance from God.

you will only see this when you take out your Cary yale deck and remove all recontructed cards form the deck except the ones I listed above.

now here is a bit of shocker

The Queen of cups is Faith = she hold a cup in her left hand and the cross in her right, in those days the women held the family and church as one
(Edit: now if she isn't the queen of cups - then if anything what would she be then? , just food for thought, were the 3 virtues part of the majors or not?) In my opinion, back in the days really would you see a female as a POPE, not likely.

(edit 2 :well when I put her into the majors, the majors now become 11, which the magic number represent 2 pillars, which Mel used for his Major arcana system.)

Oh i'm so dyslectic I hate this, just tying to get out my head, frustrating I se3e this all so clear , omgish we've been so retarted all these years about this deck and yet it was all there to begin with I feel so dumb lmaso the creater was telling us that it is based on the Tetractys lmao

Fortuna would be place at number 5 (edit sorry I confused fortuna as prudence due to the mirror. Fortuna holds the Wheel) correction would be Prudence/Charity would be place at number 5

World would be 10

I also notice that when you compare the Cary yale sheet, the end product ( paintings) on the cards are very different. as end result. I feel that the Cary Yale sheet is the After thought. for the next deck to be painted up. http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTONEGIMG/zoom/Z361/z3613378.jpg


Edit 3: OK here is this for you to examine: so with going on the 10 majors we would have this:

1. Emperor / or he could stand for Prudence
2. Empress
3. Chariot = Charity with the symbol of coin = prudence
4. Hope =
5. Faith = cup of temperance also the cross can also represent the rod = Fortitude / or it could be prudence (charity) = circular mirror = depicts prudence
6. Choice / could also be Fortitude = union of these two with courage, springs justice.
7. Strenght
8. Death /or it could be Judgement
9. Judgement / or it could be Death
10. World / or you could even put prudence (Charity) here instead. (because of how the card is depicted/painted) basically what I am says is that you are left with 10 cards that fit into the 1 - 10. now if you include the 3rd virtue to these remaining 10 cards you'll have 11, so would that make her be place like the fool is ( 0 ) or which 11 th card would be ( 0 ) depending on which cards you would use in the 1 - 10 placement.

Edit 4: so if you go by 11 cqards, you can break it down to this, 7 planets 4 element, 7 deadly sins, 4 virutes ( 7 + 4 = 11 ) so now this will make you think that yes the creator did include the 4 virtue ( Prudence), but which card is she...?

Edit 5: Italian Playing cards in which the virtues are considered to represent the 4 suits = this is where I feel that the faith card belongs in the suit of cups. Hope = Swords, Faith/ Temperance = cups,

Okay In my opinion the Chariot is Prudence for sure, and she olds a coin = Prudence = Coins. But also the chariot has 4 pillars holding up the canopy, but you can only see 2, and collumns = Fortitude, also the lady in her left hand holds a rod = foritude. The canopy has stars, so this is the cosmos which can link back to Prudence as well.

So the chariot is the 4 virtue.

or, We could just sum it up too this that the 3 cards hold the keys of the 4 virutes.

1. Fire, Beginnings, Point, Unity, Primal Cause, Manifestation, Contains 'the all', Active, Masculine.
2. Water, Duality, Opposites, Reflection, Receptivity, Passive, Feminine.
3. Air, Dominates the duality, Causes movement, Trinity, Active, Masculine.
4. Earth, Matter, Concretization, Construction, Equilibrium, Realization, Passive, Feminine.
5. Ether, Number of man, Evolution, Protection, Faith, Spirituality, Active/Passive, Masculine.
6. Hesitation, Search for harmony, Beauty, Decision, Choice, Passive, Feminine.
7. Victory, Energy, Success, Perfection, Active, Masculine.
8. Infinite, Material, Transformation, Judgement, Balance, Money, Rigor, Passive, Feminine.
9. Results, Accomplishments, End of a cycle, Inner action, Knowledge, Active, Masculine.
10. End of a cycle and beginning of a new cycle, Summing up, Using one's experience, Renewal, Return to Unity, Totality

Edit 6: should we go with 11 Cards for the majors

1. Emperor
2. Empress
3. Strength/Fortitude
4. Faith/Temperance
5. Choice
6. Hope/hanged man/hermit
7. Chariot
8. Judgement
9. death
10 Charity/Justice
0/11. World

or

1. Emperor
2. Empress
3. Strength/Fortitude
4. Faith/Temperance
5. Hope/hanged man/hermit
6. Choice
7. Chariot
8. Charity/Justice
9. Judgement
10. death
0/11 the World


PS here a view things I notice, the gold flower border pattern - flowers have 10 dots and 1 in the middle = 11 or 1 - 10 This is repeated through the deck, hmm lots of clues. also the Cary Yale, if you were to add in the hanged man, temperance, Justice, hermit you would then have 7 virtues. ( that's not right)

Edit: I'm having an internal issue, I see Charity and the Chariot as prudence, I am not getting past it, in the Charity card you have the mirror = prudence, she is looking straight into it - see herself etc. Even the child is looking into the mirror. and then there is the chariot with the charioteer hold a large coin. both of these relate to the suit of coins

Dame Fortune enthroned opposite Dame Wisdom, after sixteenth-century French engraving, Fortune carries her famous wheel, on which rides humanity: Dame Wisdom (Prudence), on the other hand, consults her mirror, in which she surveys the entire cosmos. Her mirror is represented in the tarot by the Coin suit. pg 37

Prudence was in the tarot way before Fortuna. Fortuna - she come into the picture through the writing of the 16th century.

so now we do a little fix

1. Emperor
2. Empress
3. Strength/Fortitude
4. Faith/Temperance
5. Hope/hanged man/hermit or hope = justice
6. Choice
7. Chariot
8. Prudence
9. Judgement
10. death
0/11 the World

edit: Another fix Changed Hope to position 4 after reading this http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=1614&page=5&pp=50

1. Emperor
2. Empress
3. Strength/Fortitude
4. Hope/hanged man/hermit or hope = justice
5. Faith/Temperance
6. Choice
7. Chariot
8. Prudence
9. Judgement
10. death
0/11 the World

Now we have this questions to answer who is Charity/Justice? hmmm hope could be Justice, when you look at the card, you'll see a man dress very feminiely with pearls etc. then there is the ancher? Ok I pulled out the magnifying glass. it's not a pearl neckless, it is a noose. rope around his neck I stand corrected. - which fits the Hanged man (traitor). The ancher rope wraps around her hand and wrist, as she prays to the SUN symbol.

Bottom line is that this does make so much sense, only having the 1 -10 or 11 majors. With this deck only. with all other decks this wouldn't make sense.

so when you look at the above you can see the 4 virtues and the 7 planets - 4 elements, 4 suits etc.

therefore tommorrow I'll working and the planets, unless some here on AT would know how to assign the planets to the cards above.

 

[Lady Iron Side]

Gold Roses

The Tetractys is also depicted in the gold flowers of the Pip cards

the ten of coins - Silver dots = 10 in a circle and 1 in the center - this is the only pip that doesn't have gold flowers/roses so this is the MYSTERY card with a big clue

when you go through the pips just counting the gold flowers

the most common numbers are: 4 and 7 and 10 = 4 Virtues, 4 Suits, 4 Elements, 4 Seasons, 7 planets, 7 deadly sins, 7 days of the week, 10 sacred

Both the Four and Ten were held sacred by the Pythagoreans The Tetractys is a visual demonstration that 10 = 4 + 3 + 2 + 1. The 4 becomes sacred as the number that "Contains" the 10, Enitre decad + 10, is uniquely "Circular", circularity is the arithmetic property where by systematic multiplication periodically brings back the same number. 10 is perfectly circular, for all of its products end with the same cipher (0). The number 10 is the only 2 digit number in the Decad. 10 Represents a change of state. (0 ) is the number of pure potential, of absolute beginnings and endings (return to nothingness).

The 11 Majors Have a different numerological basis. Representing timeless spiritual truths, these cards are based on the numbers 3 and 7. The World, number 0, stands at the center of a triangle (3 sides), and each side of the triangle consists of 7 cards (connected with 7 days of the week that are named for the 7 visible planets.

The number 4 is the manifestation in the real world.

Number 3 shows up in 2 cards = Charity, Hope, Faith
Number 12 shows up in 3 cards = 1 + 2 = 3, also 12 months, 12 astrological signs, Equinox's. This can also add up the 9 Worthies with the 3 Virtues Charity, Hope and Faith

the rest of the cards

5 gold roses - 3 cards
6 gold roses - 8 cards
9 gold roses 2 cards

to me the is a message in the gold roses, I just need to figure it out, or someone here on AT might know what they would mean.

Pythogoras invented the Tetractys, a Pyramid of 10 dots in rows of 1, 2, 3, and 4. This arrangement was viewed as a cosmic paradigm, offering many subordinate patterns with symbolic import. The dots of the Tetractys can be connected with lines that produce interesting Triangles, including the Right Triangle, which Plato later declared to be one of nature's building- blocks. Its internal coherence is expressed in the Pythagorean Theorem.

Odd numbers are usually regarded as forceful, yang, or "Masculine" and Even numbers a stabilizing, yin, or "Feminine.

A Must read, please read Mel's links in my next post reason is that he has describe the meanings of the numbers here so now I understand the importance of the Gold Flowers/Roses

Example:

As pointed out before, the 5 and 6 are called the marriage numbers. They are both produced by a 'wedding' of the first female number, 2, and the first male number, 3 (2 + 3 = 5) (2 x 3 = 6)

5 Gold Roses and the 6 Gold roses

PS: this would also explain why there is 6 face court cards in each suit

this explains the 9 gold roses

The Ennead sits on a corner. If we imagined this as driving, the 9 is the sharp, sudden turn we should not miss. If we miss the turn at the 9, we'll never make it back to the Monad (10 = 1+0 =1). The Ennead is the last challenge before our goal can be reached.

Also the Number 9 can represtent the ( worthies, = 3 Jew, 3 Pagans, 3 Christians ).

 

[Lady Iron Side]

Lay out - Majors -

Here is Mel's link this will help explain how to lay out the cards and I am feeling that this is also the planet assignment as well, still playing around with the 7 planets, but take a look

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=1840421&postcount=120
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=1618804&postcount=89

1 = Sun, Jupiter

2 = Moon, Saturn, Mars

3 = Jupiter, Sun, Venus

4 = Sun

5 = Mercury

6 = Venus

7 = Saturn, Moon

8 = Jupiter, Saturn

9 = Moon, Mars

10 = Sun

1. Emperor
2. Empress = Moon = correct position
3. Strength/Fortitude
4. Hope = justice = SUN = Sun symbol in top right corner = correct position
5. Faith/Temperance
6. Choice/Lovers = Venus =

As pointed out before, the 5 and 6 are called the marriage numbers. They are both produced by a 'wedding' of the first female number, 2, and the first male number, 3 (2 + 3 = 5) (2 x 3 = 6)

so this card is in correct position
7. Chariot
8. Prudence
9. Judgement
10. death
0/11 the World

Edit hmmm cards may need to moved around in the 1 - 10 positions to match up. anyways you all get the idea. so this is where it is nice that the Cary Yale Deck ( cards ) are un-named and un-numbered, leaving you to do as you please, assign them the way you want.

Another edit: moved 4 more cards, it's making more sense as we go ( prudence, strength, emperor, Chariot )

1. Prudence = Correct position
2. Empress = Moon = correct position
3. Emperor = correct position
4. Hope = justice = SUN = Sun symbol in top right corner = correct position
5. Faith/Temperance
6. Choice/Lovers = Venus
7. Strength/Fortitude
8. Chariot = Coin in hand = Infinite, Material, Transformation, Judgement, Balance, Money, Rigor, Passive, Feminine. but also 4 + 4 = 8 this is what the card is presenting when you look at it. ( 4 wheels, 4 columns) but see 2 The you have 2 horses each with 4 legs = 8 This card could even fit in the number 4 positions as well
9. Judgement
10. death
0/11 the World

Edit again:

4. Chariot = Earth, Matter, Concretization, Construction, Equilibrium, Realization, Passive, Feminine.

Now this is thinking out of the Box you could put the World card as position 1

1. World = 1. Fire, Beginnings, Point, Unity, Primal Cause, Manifestation, Contains 'the all', Active, Masculine.

so you would then place the world card in the center just like the flower/rose pattern on the cards

like this

...................xx
..............x..........x
................x......x....
...................W...
..............x..........x
...................xx

or ( sorry my circle isn't very good below just make it a circle)
.....................x
................x.........x
............x................x
.........x..........W.........x
............x................x
................x.........x
.....................x

More food for thought

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=1841421&postcount=133
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=1842946&postcount=137

I guess since the Pythagoreans viewed the Decad (1~10), particularly when arranged in a Tetraktys, as a sort master map of all phenomenon in the universe, they felt it should include a full range of experiences and principles, not just positives, hence they gave some negative qualities to some of the numbers.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=1615657&postcount=85
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=1616518&postcount=86
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=1617648&postcount=87

 

[Lady Iron Side]

RE order of Placement of Card 1 - 10

Through reading this I came up with this re- order and placing what we call the strength card to be Justice, as described here the card is depicting the Will/Courage of over taking the nature beast/Lion so this fits better. also with placing the other 3 virtues. ( PS I might be back to re-order them lol ) so you go through the links and my placement of the cards, you will then see the 1 - 10 = 11 world (God / Universe) that all the cards are related and link back to each other, it's really quite simple. and yes we have the 7 planets, 7 deadly Sines the 4 virtues, 4 elements , 4 suits.

The Theological Virtues

But he cannot come to possess the origin of being through the limited powers of his nature, because God is not an object proportioned to his nature. God infinitely exceeds the limited capacity of human nature. That is why in order to achieve perfect happiness, the rest his heart seeks in every one of his actions, he depends upon the divine initiative to freely and gratuitously lift him up through divine grace so as to proportion him to achieve the end of supernatural contemplation.

The ultimate good attracting and moving the will is both natural and supernatural. As natural it lies within the scope of our natural powers; it is the felicity matching human nature about which philosophers discourse -- the contemplative happiness of active wisdom, the practical happiness of active prudence spreading out into the activities of the other moral virtues. As supernatural, it exceeds unaided human nature and cannot be reached by our inherited powers; we cannot think it or wish it of ourselves. We are set on this happiness solely by divine liberality.12

The infused virtues are the beginnings of that life, but the human person must grow in faith, in hope, and in the life of charity in order to be properly prepared for life hereafter. Without that preparation, the life of heaven will be so contrary to our character that we can only experience it as painful, like the birth of a premature baby who has to now endure conditions the rest of us are used to, but to which his body is insufficiently adapted. A breeze that we would find pleasant would strike him as cold and profoundly uncomfortable.

The human person is naturally proportioned to human goods. He has a natural inclination to preserve his life, to beget life, to know the natures of things, to contemplate beautiful things, to enter into deeper relationships, to establish friendships, and to seek harmony between himself and his country, and between himself and God. But he does not know God as He is in Himself, nor can he love God as he loves his friends. He cannot attain God, because God is supernatural. And so if he is to achieve perfection, God must freely choose to infuse in him a supernatural inclination analogous to the natural tendencies of his nature towards natural human goods. Through these infused qualities, he is inclined to what is above the natural capacities of his nature.

The end is in the beginning: no one is directed to an end unless he be already proportioned to it. Otherwise he would not desire it, for like likes like. The motion of human nature towards happiness starts from the first principles of reason, which are like the seeds of wisdom, and the first principles of the natural law, which are like the seeds of the moral virtues. The parallel applies to the world of grace: it is consonant with the way things work that the happiness of eternal life should already be planted in him who has received the promise. Eternal life consists in the full knowledge of God: this is eternal life, that they may know thee, the only true God. This supernatural knowledge is now entered into by faith, which believes, through infused light, truths exceeding our natural wits.13

The first of these supernatural inclinations is faith, which is the intellectual assent, commanded by the will, to what God has revealed about Himself. It effects an interior illumination by which the articles of faith become intelligible.14 Consequently, before Christ's coming, "no philosopher by his entire sustained effort could have known as much about God and the truths necessary for salvation as can a humble old woman now that Christ has come."15

The theological virtue of hope is the next of the three supernatural inclinations infused into the human person, for it is not enough to believe what God has revealed about Himself. We need to be inclined to look expectantly towards Him, to await confidently the fulfillment of what He has promised, namely the promise of eternal life and the promise of His help.

But it is through the infused virtue of charity that we actually attain God and begin to possess Him in this life. The union that charity establishes is a union of friendship, which involves a love that is mutual. This friendship does not begin with us, but with His love for us. He freely and gratuitously shares His happiness with us, raises us up by grace, perfects our free will, reveals Himself, moves the will to believe and hope in Him without compelling us. To cooperate with grace, to choose to believe in Him and confidently await the fulfillment of his promises, to converse with Him and contemplate Him is to love Him back. This is to enter into friendship with God. This is supernatural charity.

For friends to converse together is the proper condition of friendship. Men's conversation with God is through contemplation...Next, friends delight in each other's presence, enjoying each other's actions and talk, and finding comfort there in their anxieties....Lastly, friends agree together. Accordingly, instructed by his precepts and moved by the Holy Spirit to fulfill them, we consent to God's will.16

And so man's return to God is led by the virtue of religion, the most perfect part of the virtue of justice, and it is achieved through the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity. But there is one place where the analogy between between the inclinations of human nature towards intelligible human goods and the infused virtues of faith, hope, and charity falls short. The theological virtues have to be developed and nourished, or they will die. Heaven is not comparable to a Club Med or some other lush tropical resort. We naturally incline to such conditions, but we do not naturally incline to the life of faith and charity or the heavenly liturgy (Rv. 4). The infused virtues are the beginnings of that life, but the human person must grow in faith, in hope, and in the life of charity in order to be properly prepared for life hereafter. Without that preparation, the life of heaven will be so contrary to our character that we can only experience it as painful, like the birth of a premature baby who has to now endure conditions the rest of us are used to, but to which his body is insufficiently adapted. A breeze that we would find pleasant would strike him as cold and profoundly uncomfortable.

1. Strength ( Will / Seed ) = Justice http://catholiceducation.org/articles/education/ed0285.html
2. Empress
3. Emperor
4. Faith/Temperance - http://catholiceducation.org/articles/education/ed0281.html
5. Hope/hanged man = Fortitude - http://catholiceducation.org/articles/education/ed0283.html
6. Choice
7. Chariot
8. Judgement
9. death = Fortitude = relates / links to and explains the death card and it's placement of whys, what etc.
10 Charity/ Prudence = http://catholiceducation.org/articles/education/ed0282.html placment of prudence here works best for it goes back to 1 in my opinion 1 - 10

The reason is that there are no circumstances that change the nature of these actions, which involve in themselves a deficient willing, that is, willing that is incompatible with complete openness to all human goods, such as human life and marriage, and justice. But a special virtue is required for the here and now precisely because of this limited range; for as we move outside of the realm of the universal and into this rather murky territory of the variable and particular, decisions on what to do and how to proceed become more difficult, far less certain, and they require very well developed sensibilities, intuition, experience, rightly ordered appetite, both rational and sensitive, especially a will formed by charity. St. Thomas writes: “Now this sympathy or connaturality for Divine things is the result of charity, which unites us to God, according to 1 Cor. 6:17: "He who is joined to the Lord, is one spirit." Consequently wisdom which is a gift, has its cause in the will, which cause is charity, but it has its essence in the intellect, whose act is to judge aright, as stated above” (ST. II-II. 45, 2). That is why the saint enjoys a level of contemplation and wisdom that is unavailable to the theologian or philosopher who is lacking in charity. The light of contemplation in turn enhances one's ability to determine the mean of reason in fortitude and temperance and all their parts as well as the mean of justice, and the fire of charity renders one more just, brave, and temperate, which in turn spawns a greater prudence.

...speculative reason differs from practical reason as the unchanging differs from the changing. What we know through speculative reason is something which always is what it is; it is invariable and therefore cannot be otherwise than what it is. In this way we know, for example, that a triangle cannot be otherwise than having its angles equal to two right angles. What we know through practical reason is variable, for in seeking to know how to act we are dealing with what is in itself changeable and subject to alteration. But, to avoid a possible misunderstanding here, let us note that what is variable can be known in two ways: in general and in particular.

0/11. World


Edit my End note:

this for those who use 22 Majors, you will need to reorder you justice and fortitude card into the correct order sorry but that is the right the way the virtues are to be. ( justice = first, Temperance second, then Fortitude is 3rd on in last Prudence fourth)

Edit: Well after much research I made the final decision, I will now be only using the original 11 majors and I've put all the reconstructed cards of the Majors back into the box down in my Cedar truck in the basement, from this day forward this will be the deck I'll be reading from using Mel's method and of the Tretractys system ( 1 - 10 ) and make my goal the 11 world, the center of all

Edit: I thank Mel for all his research which guided me deeper and to finially be satisfied, I always had this strong connection with the Cary Yale, and thanks to Mel it is fully understood, I am completely happy now, I nolonger need to search for that right deck, I have it. I will continue with Mels, method, wisdom, knowledge etc. in working with this deck.

 

[Lady Iron Side]

Correction to order of the 10 cards

This morning I again was looking at the order of the cards, I noticed that there were broken links, as I said above my mind kept seeing and my heart kept feeling that Chariot and Charity were Prudence I couldn't get past it, then I went through the same thing with Strength and the death card, and from there it snow balled. My dyslexic mind see things in patterns,I works like a maze there is always answer you just need to find the way. I used to break (glitches) video games in the past and software, find holes in firewalls etc.I can only tell you this my mind can find pattern, but it can't fix it therefore my mind will find the way but the rest is up to you.

So then I realized that when you placed the cards out in pairs using the cards symbols as guide I received this pairing so this may change the order that I thought was. This is for you to examine please feel free to share your thoughts etc.

In Pairing the 10 cards: This is showing the links

Emperor and Empress

Faith/Temperance and choice/Temperance = these cards together show dignified and ill-dignified qualities of Temperance http://catholiceducation.org/articles/education/ed0281.html

The Choice/Lovers card depicts Faith - she is wearing the same dress, fur, crown,red sleves, hair, etc,

Chariot/Prudence and Prudence/Charity = these cards together show dignified and ill-dignified qualities of Prudence - http://catholiceducation.org/articles/education/ed0282.html

The lady sitting in/on the Chariot is Charity/Prudence - hair face, dress the fur etc. and to top it off the big clue is that she holds out a COIN in her hand, instead of a Mirror.

Death/Fortitude and Strength/Fortitude, this then tells me that strength is Fortitude therefore it changes the order in the 1 - 10 .These cards together show dignified and ill-dignified qualities of Fortitude - http://catholiceducation.org/articles/education/ed0283.html

Fortitude binds the will firmly to the good of reason in the face of the greatest evils, and the most fearful of all bodily evils is death. And so the very idea of fortitude presupposes that there are certain things we should love more than our own lives, certain things we ought to be willing to die for. We hold that the human person ought to love what is larger than himself, namely truth, justice, and the common good of the social whole. He ought to love the good of the entire civil community so much as to be willing to expose himself to the danger of death for its sake, and we would argue that he ought to love God (who is Truth) more than himself, and be willing to expose himself — not others — to the dangers of death for His sake, that is, for His cause.

In the Death Card you have the horse and death stampeding a group of people in that group you have a POPE and a VIRTUE, this was my clue to Strength cause she is the Virtue being depicted.

Hope/Justice and Judgement/Justice (is actually Justice not judgement) = change in order - These cards together show dignified and ill-dignified qualities of Justice - http://catholiceducation.org/articles/education/ed0285.html In the Judgement/Justice card you have a man which is a Virtue the hair the beard etc. of The Man with the noose around his neck in the Hope card that was my link.

Then the 11 th cards is the World

This is again a dyslexic thought I wish to share - When looking at the pairs you can alos see that each set represent dignified and ill-dignified or pasitive / negative as a unit or whole of the 4 virtues. Then You have the Emperor and Empress they are who they are they uphold/set the 4 virtues as laws to govern the World, they are the masculine and feminine qualities of the 4 virtues dignified and ill - dignified

Edit: Then you add in the 4 suits

Emperor and Empress = Masculine/Feminine qualities to these 4 suits = 6 faced court Cards in each suit female and male knight and pages, queen King

Faith and Choice ( Temperance ) Rules the suit of Cups =

Charity and Chariot (Prudence) Rules the suit of Coins =

Fortitude and Death (Fortitude) Rules the suit of Staves/Batons =

Hope and Justice ( Justice ) Rules the suit of Swords =

Edit: so remember when reading this deck 1 - 10 with the world as 11 keep in mind that it is either the square or the triangle that the number 10 and 1 position needs each other this is your oraborus ( I hope you understand). The end is in the beginning: Prudence and Justice

1 Justice and hope = masculine and feminine = dignified and ill-dignified
2. Faith and Choice = feminine and masculine ( Choice = Both) = dignified and ill- dignified
3. Fortitude and Death = Feminine and masculine = dignified and ill - dignified
4. Prudence and Chariot = Feminine and Masculine (Chariot = both) = dignified and Ill - dignified

so then you would place them in the order of the 1 - 10 based on Masculine and feminine positions and in the order of the virtues.

1. Fire, Beginnings, Point, Unity, Primal Cause, Manifestation, Contains 'the all', Active, Masculine.
2. Water, Duality, Opposites, Reflection, Receptivity, Passive, Feminine.
3. Air, Dominates the duality, Causes movement, Trinity, Active, Masculine.
4. Earth, Matter, Concretization, Construction, Equilibrium, Realization, Passive, Feminine.
5. Ether, Number of man, Evolution, Protection, Faith, Spirituality, Active/Passive, Masculine.
6. Hesitation, Search for harmony, Beauty, Decision, Choice, Passive, Feminine.
7. Victory, Energy, Success, Perfection, Active, Masculine.
8. Infinite, Material, Transformation, Judgement, Balance, Money, Rigor, Passive, Feminine.
9. Results, Accomplishments, End of a cycle, Inner action, Knowledge, Active, Masculine.
10. End of a cycle and beginning of a new cycle, Summing up, Using one's experience, Renewal, Return to Unity, Totality

Edit: The world/Earth at that time was believed to be the center of the universe which Ruled the 7 planets, The World card be view as the ALL, GOD, and all the scientific words you could come up with for the creation of our Universe and life, all the beliefs in the world all have value, moral, ethics, laws of how we should be as humans like the 10 commandments. I hope you understand what my dyslexic mind i8s saying, I have trouble communicating the right words or terms. Also the World card Rule all the above card 1 - 10 it rules the Emperor, empress etc. it is the center of the 10.


Note: Thanks for taking the time to read all my dyslexic thoughts of what I was seeing in the cards. I hope that you can see it too. The Cary Yale deck ( Majors ) was and is complete, there wasn't a need to reconstruct the other majors into it. it wasn't meant to be and those reconstructed card at the time this deck was created hadn't even existed yet. The reconstructed cards WERE an after thought, simple as that as in enhancing these 11 cards or to expand on to these 11 cards. I feel that I have deciphered the Cary Yale deck, broke the code for everyone and I hope historians from around the world will see that, now everyone can appreciate this deck even more it is both morally and ethically balance masculine and femine it is duality they way of life and I give so much credit to mel for mel's method, reaseach guided me down the path to benefit others to understanding this deck.

Edit lol see what happens when you don't have book, I have learned a very valuable lesson, I didn't need a book - so good thing I lost the LWB. thanks BEE, and Mel, ...^5 it's been a great journey. So know I have new problem to find a way, how am I going to share my tarot reading with others? Dear BEE we might need a new thread for the Cary Yale deck as Mel said in his first post of the Mel's old fashion method

My sources are mainly classical, though some as late as the 16th century. These methods are best used with real tarot gaming decks. Obviously Waite's deck and Crowley's deck, and most modern Tarot decks are designed around the systems of their creators. I tried to base my 'system' objectively on classical and period sources, so my interpretations will have little in common with the popular tarot systems, including those used for the Marseille decks like Marteau's or Camoin's.

this is very different from other tarot decks. just a thought . Bee maybe we could put some of this in the study group, I will that up to you.

 

[Lady Iron Side]

End Results

Odd numbers are usually regarded as forceful, yang, or "Masculine" and Even numbers a stabilizing, yin, or "Feminine".

1) Hope and Justice ( Justice ) Rules the suit of Swords = Fire = 1, 7

2) Faith and Choice ( Temperance ) Rules the suit of Cups = Air = 3, 5, 9,

3) Charity and Chariot (Prudence) Rules the suit of Coins = Water = 2, 6, 8

4) Fortitude and Death (Fortitude) Rules the suit of Staves/Batons = Earth = 4, 10



1. Justice/Judgement = Fire - Choleric - Sun: Beginnings, Point, Unity, Primal Cause, Manifestation, Contains 'the all', Active, Masculine.
2. Chariot = Water - phlegmatic - Moon / Mars: Duality, Opposites, Reflection, Receptivity, Passive, Feminine.
3. Choice/Lovers = Air - Sanguine - Jupiter: Dominates the duality, Causes movement, Trinity, Active, Masculine.
4. Fortitude = Earth - Melancholic - Saturn / Sun: Matter, Concretization, Construction, Equilibrium, Realization, Passive, Feminine.
5. Faith = Air - Sanguine - Mercury: Ether, Number of man, Evolution, Protection, Faith, Spirituality, Active/Passive, Masculine.
6. Empress = Water - Phlegmatic - Venus: Hesitation, Search for harmony, Beauty, Decision, Choice, Passive, Feminine. Magical Equilibrium. The fluidity in the Fountain this is depicted on many of the cards in the Cary Yale Deck Heroldic embroidery on the Men's jackets as well on the womens dresses
7. Hope = Fire - Choleric - Saturn / Moon: Victory, Energy, Success, Perfection, Active, Masculine.
8. Charity/Prudence = Water - Phlegmatic - Jupiter: Infinite, Material, Transformation, Judgement, Balance, Money, Rigor, Passive, Feminine.
9. Emperor = Air - Sanguine - Mars / Moon: Results, Accomplishments, End of a cycle, Inner action, Knowledge, Active, Masculine. (In alchemical process the twelve stages = complete a cycle, like the emperor, establishes order.) He personifies power over the chaotic elements, necessarily given structure so as to provide the substrata for mortal life. Ennead = (The completion end of cycle) The number 9 is generated by 3 + 3 + 3 and therefore is the completion. The Ennead further connotes Completion by standing highess among the single digit integer ( Past, Present, Future) this is so the Emperor.

Edit: Also it connect him back the The Empress in position 6 ( 3 + 3 ) then is connects back to position 3 Choice/Lovers. Now isn't this ironic, 6 is the marriage number, so then you have the marriage of the emperor and empress masculine and feminine energies and it represent the marriage of Francesco and Bianca. this is saying that they became the future Emperor and Empress of Milan. and that is why the world Card depict the city (Milan). this is so ironic it make sense...lol. Nice Wedding gift, how perfect, from the Artist.

The more i look into these 11 Major the more i see the story being told. This Deck is her ( Bianca ) it's her diary/journal of her life and Milan. It contains her beliefs, moral they way of life in those days, it represents everything about her and Milan, her life in High position. expectations, her duties, all the people she loved, all the stuff that mattered to her, her experiences, how she viewed the world around her, etc. Her Family ( Visconti) their ruler-ship of Milan, it depict all the trial they went through as Rulers. All of this I can asure you the Artist knew about. This is so cool .

10. Death = Earth - Melancholic - Sun: End of a cycle and beginning of a new cycle, Summing up, Using one's experience, Renewal, Return to Unity, Totality.

1 - 10 = your spiritual lessons that you must learn, in order to return to ( 0 ) - The World.

0/11 The World ( even Mel place the World and Fool in the center of his elements for the Major Arcana). This diagram was Drawn by Bee using Mel's Method http://tazmaria.multiply.com/photos/album/2/Marseille#photo=6 (0 ) is the number of pure potential, of absolute beginnings and endings (return to nothingness).

here is another link you may find interesting which helped me put the cards in order http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=101507&page=12&pp=10

End Note: Yes I know the Emperor was a tricky one, he is normally Fire, but even examining Mels Major element assignment, and by going his Majors assign to the minor the Emperor was a broken link ( he had no home) lol, so I spent 2 hrs trying to figure out the Emperors proper Element and matching him up with the minor suits as wells = 9 - Air , anyways you can set him as really BOTH Fire and Air. Also Death was a bit of problem with associating a Element. In Mel's he associated Death with water, but then going by the Virtues Death is associated with Earth which makes more sense, when you die you get buried ashes to ashes dust to dust, earth to earth and with any Death it is very Melancholic when you think of it. well that my opinion. any ways you can decide for yourself what works best for you.

Justice/Judgment Card - to clarify why I have called this Card Justice and not Judgement - 2 reason a) the virtue that is depicted in the card b) I researched the latin words in Gold - Surgite ad judicium, Which means " Stand up (Rise) to Justice or Judgement."

Sorry I had 2 placements wrong after I double checked my hand written notes - Empress and Prudence so I made the correction above.
I added more of my research notes to Post 5 and 6 above if you wish to check it out more of my Minds theory.