Reversal of suit meanings

[Shining_Moon]

Hi all

I have a question which I am sure must have been answered before but for the life of me I cant find it. so apologies if this is repetitive.

I have picked up in various books that Waite deliberatly reversed the elemental correspondences of air and fire (i.e air was wands and fire was swords.) Can anyone shed any light on this? Is it a fabrication or is there belived to be some truth in the rumour?

Thanks in advance

Vix

 

[Penelope]

Pamela Colman Smith employed a recognisable motif
in her Tarot card imagery, and her deck was created in
1909 ~ well before A.E.Waite penned a little book on it.

Salamanders, Sylphs, Gnomes, and Nymphs "populate"
the Court Cards ~ revealing the intended attributions.

We are all free, however, to view them as we wish, and
not even worry that all the elements are ultimately one.

 

[ruthanne]

waite 's book on kaballah

hi, in ancient cultures life was like a mirror. writing was reversed so you could get meaning both directions and often meanings were hidden in this manner.. i have just finished with waites book on kaballah . he had a theory on the shekinah .. he refers to the ancients as venusian cultures.. following that line leads one to sirius( the planet..) please bear with me , it all fits with the mirror writings. the astological decans come from the movement of siriius the brightest star in the heavens, sirius was the egyptian star represent god. dog head on the main eqyptian god. the star sirius, star venus( the morning star, and the moon that all play with our sun. in the never ending movements of the heavens.. siruis ' movement thr the heavens is the same as the ellpse that the tarot card lay out in. thus and it is hypothosis 21century is the return of sirius ,,, 21 tarot cards. and if the dog gods of egypt are true

then the fool is loof( companion)and dog = god. and it is our movement thru the stars.. waite nor crowley ever give you a full explaination .. if you cant figure it out ,they just dont want you to know.. this is the secret society stuff these people built thier beliefs on.. also if you look at the constellation orion and orions belt.. you will see similarities .. with the fool card.. the staff, his belt and the way he holds the rose. in waites writings also his explaination of the saros system.. 18 year system of the movement of the moon... note card 18 =moon based on ancient phonecians and sumerian modes of marking star movements.. it is as good as our scientific methods of today.. i am still looking for the meanings of soras and mehan .. does anyone know these meanings... thank you ruthanne

 

[Teheuti]

I have picked up in various books that Waite deliberatly reversed the elemental correspondences of air and fire (i.e air was wands and fire was swords.) Can anyone shed any light on this? Is it a fabrication or is there belived to be some truth in the rumour?

Waite followed the suit-element correspondences used by the Order of the Golden Dawn and Eliphas Lévi. Among tarot authors every suit has been associated with nearly every element, including Cups as Air, Swords as Water and Wands as Earth.

Mary

 

[Penelope]

Pamela Colman Smith followed the traditional associations
of Wands-Fire Cups-Water Swords-Air and Pentacles-Earth
which must have appealed to Waite as he marketed her deck.

 

[Shining_Moon]

I'm a bit confused - surely Pixie was under direction from Waite? Didsnt he control all the majors and had an input into the minors?

 

[Teheuti]

I'm a bit confused - surely Pixie was under direction from Waite? Didsnt he control all the majors and had an input into the minors?

All indications are that Pixie did the deck as a "work for hire." Her only known comment on the deck was something to the effect - "I just completed a big job for very little money." Waite definitely said that it was done under his direction - especially for the Majors where Pixie had to be "spoon-fed". Personally I feel that if it were not for Pixie it would never have become the major work that it is, but it was definitely a collaboration - with Pixie's highly intuitive skills and artistic talent, plus Waite's knowledge of the Western mystery traditions, tarot and symbolism.

While most people sense that Pixie had far more to do with the design of the Minors than the Majors (and I certainly agree) - I've also discovered that Waite had more of a vision for the Minors than he ever acknowledged. Llewellyn's Tarot Reader 2006 (available now) has an article by me that details this. He left a couple of clear hints of his intention in PKT and all the information is available in his other books, but especially _The Hidden Church of the Holy Graal_ which was published the same year as the tarot deck (1909). The dead giveaway is Robert de Boron's Joseph of Arimathea story (one of the oldest Grail myths) as summarized by Waite. It exactly matches the suit of Cups. The rest of the details can be found in my article. Waite's sources have been right in front of us all along. I'd love to know if anyone, after reading Waite's works, would disagree with me.

Mary

 

[Penelope]

And the "Winner" is...

I'm a bit confused - surely Pixie was under direction from Waite? Didsnt he control all the majors and had an input into the minors?

Try using this simple little test and then decide for yourself.
Look at the Tarot Cards and ask yourself if they make sense,
and then read anything by Arthur Edward Waite and ask the
same thing ~ does Waite ever even seem to have a clue?

 

[Penelope]

thanks Teheuti

I'd love to know if anyone, after reading Waite's works,
would disagree with me.

Let's just say I disagree to agree!

 

[Teheuti]

Try using this simple little test and then decide for yourself.
Look at the Tarot Cards and ask yourself if they make sense,
and then read anything by Arthur Edward Waite and ask the
same thing ~ does Waite ever even seem to have a clue?

It's true--there are several cards (about five) where what Waite says does not accord with the picture. And he doesn't refer to a lot of the symbols in the pictures of the minors. And quite a few of the images can be found among Pixie's other artworks. But, Pixie was well-trained as an illustrator of other people's works - literature, songs, drama, folktales. She interpreted these works in pictures, assisted by an uncanny ability to "see" into the originator's intent (as attested to by Yeats, and various musicians). So, I would call it a collaboration.

And, Waite did "have a clue." A very deep one. I felt somewhat like you do when I first fell in love with the RWS deck and tried to read PKT. But, in reading it many, many times over the past 38 years, plus by reading Waite's sources and many of his other works, I've come to respect the depth of what he was saying. And, if you haven't read my analysis of Waite's intentions for the minor arcana in Llewellyn's Tarot Reader 2006, then you haven't considered the evidence.

IMHO, it was a brilliant collaboration.

Mary