Reversal of suit meanings

Penelope

I'm very glad to see that A.E.Waite has so many supporters
to interpret and explain the possible meaning of his books...

And I am delighted :) that the work of Pamela Colman Smith
speaks clearly for itself, each image revealing her intentions.
 

Penelope

similia said:
...careful...secession...
Hi Similia,

You tagged two words with (?) which perhaps I can help with.
"Careful" simply means carefully, and "Secession" refers to the
Photo Secession of Alfred Stieglitz. I've provided a link adding
more information... Stieglitz and Georgia O'Keeffe provided us
with an enduring collection of the Art of Pamela Colman Smith.

*

Welcome To Alfred Stieglitz & The Photo Secession
http://members.tripod.com/photosecession/

"The Photo Secession was organized by Alfred Stieglitz (1864-1946) and operated by him between 1902 and 1917. Composed of carefully selected pictorial photographers, the society often did the best and most original photography produced in the United States and abroad. Stieglitz himself an expert photographer, championed the goals of the Photo-Secession in his magazine Camera Work (1903-17) and at the little galleries of the Photo-Secession (1905-1917) at 291 Fifth Avenue."
 

Fulgour

never a word...

Teheuti said:
I have seen it before, but I didn't see anything in the letter indicating that Pixie had little input from Waite.
I think the point here is that Pamela Colman Smith never mentions
A.E.Waite ~ a good indication that he was a 'minor' consideration.
 

Teheuti

Fulgour said:
I think the point here is that Pamela Colman Smith never mentions A.E.Waite ~ a good indication that he was a 'minor' consideration.
Having done primary research for the biographies of four women I can tell you that such a short mention is not proof for or against anything other than what it says. Given another piece of primary material and suddenly you're down another track entirely. There is some information (currently mere rumor but I'm trying to track down the source) that Waite first developed the tarot designs in 1898 (based on materials he received from the third GD founder - Woodman).

Even if every detail of the Majors and the general outline of the Minors was dictated by Waite (which I'm not saying it was), still, there is something extraordinary about the way PCS rendered the data that makes the deck into an enduring work. At this point, the only primary materials we have from PCS are the mention in the letter and the evidence of her other art works. From these we can see that she drew on a certain image bank that's reflected in other works. Perhaps the main repeating themes are that of a watery shore, a distant tower, and the fantasy-medieval clothes.

Among Waite's works we find precise explanations of most of the symbols that appear on the cards. See my article in Llewellyn's 2006 Tarot Reader where I demonstrate that Waite used specific grail myths and masonic themes in the Minor Arcana. Then find anything even remotely that close in the works of PCS.

Mary
 

Fulgour

1 picture is worth 1000 words.

Teheuti said:
Then find anything even remotely that close in the works of PCS.
"According to its nature, every symbol is already significantly
more than the conscious mind can every grasp." Hajo Banzhaf
 

Teheuti

Fulgour said:
"According to its nature, every symbol is already significantly
more than the conscious mind can every grasp." Hajo Banzhaf
I agree entirely. So AEW says to PCS, "I want pomegranates and palms painted in a specific pattern on the veil between the pillars." AEW talks about some of the importance of the pomegranates and palms in several places. PCS paints them as he described them. We, as viewers of the card on which these appear, continue to explore them in ways that neither Waite nor Smith could ever have imagined - including as highly personal references to our own lives. Isn't that what tarot is all about?

Mary
 

Fulgour

Don't Worry ~ Be Happy!

Teheuti said:
So AEW says to PCS, "I want pomegranates and palms painted in a specific pattern on the veil between the pillars." AEW talks about some of the importance of the pomegranates and palms in several places. PCS paints them as he described them.
I think I understand now... Please, if you want us to believe
(without decent proof) that Waite made helpful suggestions,
of course, we'd all be very happy to agree with you on that.
 

Teheuti

Fulgour said:
Please, if you want us to believe
(without decent proof) that Waite made helpful suggestions,
of course, we'd all be very happy to agree with you on that.
No need to simply believe my word -
Please, read my article, "The RWS Minor Arcana" in the Llewellyn 2006 Tarot Reader - especially regarding the suit of Cups. I can't type up the whole article here.

Bob O'Neill's pages on the Waite-Smith Majors include plenty of references to Waite's writings on specific symbols in the cards. For one example, see
http://www.tarotpassages.com/old_moonstruck/oneill/0.htm

Mary
 

Shining_Moon

HI all

I think this topic is fascinating and very worthy of a thread in its own right but we have every so slightly drifted off point! :)

Returning to the orginal question.. I have read somewhere (and of course can't name the book but it was a pagan/wiccan one) that waite deliberatly reversed the swords/air wands/fire elements as he didn't want to be seen as giving away 'secrets'.

To this day in wiccan circles there are those who follow wands/fire and wands/air which can be confusing to say the least.

Any ideas anyone?
 

Teheuti

Shining_Moon said:
To this day in wiccan circles there are those who follow wands/fire and wands/air which can be confusing to say the least.

The Guardnerian tradition used swords as fire primarily because of the role of swords in the "Great Rite". The Golden Dawn saw wands as fire and this was continued in the Faery tradition and Starhawk's Reclaiming groups, so either could be considered as Pagan.

Mary