Tarot and Alchemy?

[Ravenswing]

a few foolish thoughts

just a little bit of thinking out loud.

the fool appears at the beginning of the major arcana (numbered zero so we can justify placing it before one), between judgment and the world (numbered zero for no **ligitimate** reason i can think of-- eclectic deck) and after the world (and numbered XXII, which makes sense since it comes after XXI-- ibis deck)

we can go a bit further and consider that the fool isn't even part of the major arcana.

all of these seem to me to lead to **valid** frameworks for a model of structure of **reality**.

so, does order count here a bit too much?

consider: before laying out a spread, we shuffle the cards, in order to generate a **random** ordering. i don't believe anyone would do a spread with the deck in its **natural** order. (i don't say that this couldn't be done, but what would the point be??)

could it be that the **hero** of the tarot is either the fool or the magician only by virtue of being first in line?

consider: have you ever met your hierophant directly upon taking leave of an emperor? when you climb out of your chariot, who DO you meet? is temperence strictly an after-death experience? do you climb out of the wreckage of your tower and serenely watch venus setting? and what about naomi?


(sorry, i just couldn't resist that one )

let's scramble the majors and see what kind of story we can come up with. (the navigator's tarot has the **advantage** of unnumbered majors)

i'm working on a **random** order that starts with the moon. i figure that a tale full of archetypes should produce an archetypical tale. no matter the order.

any not so foolish responces??

putting on his jester's cap
ravenswing

 

[MeeWah]

Diana: The view of The Fool's Journey lends itself to the story of the journey of Everyman, or of each Soul; however, I can see The Fool as Spirit/Godforce, complete unto Itself & thus independent of any "position".

Numerically speaking--

0 is not merely "zero", but a circle representative of Spirit Unmanifested or the Soul. The beginning & the end; Alpha & Omega; eternity. The superconscious; the collective unconscious.

The Magician as "1": a straight line, Spirit Manifested. The Soul incarnated; man. The active principle; the conscious; the ego.

The High Priestess as "2": a semi-circle above a horizontal line is the "fallen" man with the Soul "above" him. Spirit & matter manifested in duality. The passive principle; the unconscious (residing within the conscious).

The Empress as "3": two semi-circles, the Divine Feminine. Creation. The trinity of conscious, unconscious, superconscious; physical, mental, spiritual; father, mother, child; etc.

The Emperor as "4": a triangle supported by a straight line. Man in an upright position carrying the Divine Principle. Representative of reason/logic, physical achievement. Also symbolic of the earth; the human condition/situation.

The Hierophant/Pope as 5: a right angle supported by a semi-circle, Man. The "fallen" man is supported by his soul. Man perceives his environment through the 5 senses & learns through experiencing life in the earth. Change, testing, instability, imperfection, incompletion.

That is as far as I will go with this as I am running out of steam, but I would like to hear more from others...

 

[Tor]

Right and not right

Hi Diana and all!

I read this thread and got a feeling that you all don't see the forest for all the trees...

In my opinion, as a astrologer, there is no singel truth. A Marseilles deck could be much as" truth" as a Golden Dawn deck. And it could be The Fool's journey as well as The Magician's journey.

My point is that we all have different paths to walk, and that the tools we pick up along the way will be the right one for us - even though it's not a "academical truth" we are dealing with.

With a respect for other people, we can exchange thoughts and ideas - but don't you ever say that you carry the truth. But we may have strong beliefs . Personally I like to think that I always can be wrong, and uses this as the basis of my search.

When we now enter the age of aquarius, (I think) there will be much focus on cooperating as a group. We have to listen to each other, and understand that life is made of many colors - and some times contradictions too. This will be a basis for our future humanity - to be open and respectful over our neighbours opinions.

In the bible, or at least the gospel of Thomas (not sure) - there is a place where Jesus talks about life as a body - where the little toe is much as important as the ear. It's the entirety of life he wants us to respect, and that complete different things is equal important and part of the truth.

So when it comes to tarot and facts, just say what you prefer...

Of course we have absolute facts in life, but they also can change tomorrow. Remember that the whole world once was absolutely sure the earth was flat. We have been wrong before and can be wrong again.

I read somewhere that with the murder of Kain, we got science - and lost our connection with God. If that's the thing (I like the explanation), we - as representing hidden forces and divine power - must be aware that we don't fall into the blind alley of facts and truths.

Well, that was just my opinion....

 

[Strega]

Re: Right and not right

So when it comes to tarot and facts, just say what you prefer...

Exactly...

Diana: Do you see a connection between the "Magician's journey" and Alchemy? If so, in what ways?

 

[Diana]

edited

 

[catlin]

Hi Diana,

No need to apaoligize, I am not cross with you and there is no need to get me a deck unless you will become sleepless or your soul will get uneasy

I did not feel "hijacked", it takes much more in life to get that feeling on me. We are all friends and everybody can speak and discuss his/her opinion here.

 

[jmd]

Given the incentive offered by Diana ('Or someone will show me maybe one day that what the Golden Dawn did is an improvement (and the person who is able to convince me of that will get a box of Swiss chocolates every month for a whole year)'), I couldn't resist

Before I do, however, I thought I would add another perspective, one possibly also implied by MeeWah's post: it may be neither the Fool's nor the Bateleur's journey, but our own! As such, the positioning of the Fool prior to XXI the World, with this latter's very mediaeval Christ-like representation, is very appropriate. The Fool is the one who can reach - but is not himself - the kingdom of God.

Being un-numbered does not mean that he has no definite position. Rather, his positioning may have to be discovered through looking at the cards themselves. Where it is, of course, will depend precisely on how one enters the cards and the given series.

This is where both the Golden Dawn and Alchemy come in. As mentioned in one of the above posts (I think by Laurel), each card can, if one decides to, be seen as either one of the Alchemical steps of transformation or states. What the Golden Dawn may have done as an 'improvement' (you didn't mention from what !!) is the very detailed study they made of various 'systems' and available materials - and sought to unite syncretistically: very much a rebirth or reflection of what occured both in Alexandria and during the birth of Tarot. Before them was, on the whole, a long period of, by comparison, dry replication, at times losing possible esoteric understanding. Though this 'esotericism' may very much have opened dead-end avenues and far-fetched incongruous systems, it also lead to genuine search for in-depth understanding of, amongst other disciplines, the Tarot. In this sense, they surpassed the work done by Levi, Papus and others... is this sufficient for the monthly boxes of Swiss chocolate?

The Alchemical texts and diagrammes are, to my mind, quite different from those of Tarot. It seems that any comparison comes more from similarities in the mind-set of some working with both, rather than obvious similarities. Though to be sure, gaining an understanding of Alchemy undoubtedly can assist in deepening one's understanding of Tarot - and hence one's self!

 

[MeeWah]

Diana: As Catlin, I welcome your comments--they make one think!! & to reflect on the possibilities. My post is *not* to refute your ideas or view, but to present a personal view, albeit an incomplete understanding at best! Hopefully, 'tis a view that changes & evolves to encompass a better understanding, which is assisted by associating with the good folks of this venue!

JMD: Yes, & thank ye! I am attempting to explain that what I see may be Man's journey in this plane of existance; the incarnation of Spirit represented by each Soul. I am not knowledgeable about the Golden Dawn teachings nor Alchemy, but those are areas to explore in relation to enhancing the understanding of self & Tarot.

 

[Laurel]

As a side note, Robert Place doesn't use the Golden Dawn's alchemical attributions; he's gone to other sources. Sometimes I'm a little harsh or critical on the Golden Dawn, but that doesn't mean they haven't been among of my most profound and inspiring teachers Aristotle criticized some of his teacher Plato's ideas and both worked with Plato's ideas and his own; that didn't make either of them less than Great Men.

Certainly, to truly study alchemy one would have to... errr... study alchemy. Alchemy within tarot is a way of giving some of the ideas of alchemy a different form, but its not the same thing. The same can be said about Astrology, Kabbalah, Runes, Sacred Geometry, etc.

Yet the more I study various esoteric arts and sciences, the more I'm struck by the profound symbiotic nature of the ideas that underlay all of it. Further, these ideas are so flexible and easy to personalize so they have both universal and personal meaning. So if I see the "Great Work" of alchemy or the "Journey" within the tarot trumps as one and the same and 'The Magician's Journey', part of that might be because its written as such in some moldering tome... but really, its because I see *myself* as 'The Magician' and its my own story being told. Likewise, someone who identified with 'The Fool', 'The High Priestess', "The Sacred Shaman' might look at that archetype as a central role. In the end, everyone is right. Its a story, a process, that takes place within every single person who's open to the experience... and every story is both holistic and unique, part of the universe and completely individualistic. The apparent paradox is in itself part of the magic of the whole thing.

Laurel

 

[MystiqueMoonlight]

Diana raises an interesting debate here and I certainly hope it can be taken up on a seperate thread.

Diana: don't be shy, we're all friends here. IMO an open discussion on the Fool's/Magician's Journey is very practical and probably very welcome in this forum.


Just a thought for everybody though regarding the numbering of the Fool.

Take out all of your Majors and lay them out in numerical order starting with the I Magician. You should have 3 rows of seven cards. Now place the Fool at the very top on his own.

Study what you have before you.

Now take the Fool and place him between any 2 cards in any of the 3 rows. Study the entire sequence again.

Repeat this.

Does this explain the number "0" of the Fool after trying this out for anyone?