Tarot Association of the British Isles - courses

[gwiazda]

But the public is getting the impression that unendorsed, or uncertified readers are less qualified through the very act of endorsement.

In a sense they are The whole business of education and training in any subject or sphere is based on the formula: you learn something, some person or body tests that you have the knowledge that you claim and gives you a piece of paper to say so. Why should tarot be any different to say Law or Philosophy?

My question is: why is it becoming necessary in the Tarot world that in order to make any money, in order to get started, that you need to be certified?

Clearly more of a problem over there, but the answer to that would seem to be: public demand. If you made a product that people didn't want to buy, not because the product itself was unsaleable, but because you chose to produce it in an unpopular colour or flavour, would you dig your heels in and wait for the public to see the light, or demand that other manufacturers didn't compete by unfairly choosing more popular colours? :-D

I know I've been reading for 6 years on and off, and tried a few times to break into the professional scene with no luck because I wasn't certified. Was it the luck of the draw? Perhaps. But when I hear clients choosing someone next to me because they have a piece of paper saying they can do it, and I don't, and that's taking clients away from me, that's when I have a problem with it.

Over here we are more under the cudgel of Public Liability Insurance before we can work - an export of your litigious society, I expect ;-) and the only certificates demanded are for insurance! Now, there's a topic worthy of a "money for old rope" thread. But, I swallow my dismay and cough up (a not inconsiderable sum) in order to work.

So, if you can do it, get the piece of paper that says you can - then the playing field will be even :-D

 

[jmd]

As clearly identified by Piper, the development of this thread is not about 'TABI-bashing', nor about the value of tarot education in its various forms, but about the supposed value of 'certification', 'endorsement' and other forms of 'approved to read' or 'accreditation'. These do not belong to the realms of divination or fortune-telling (each legitimately part of the art of reading tarot, though in some locations around the world prohibited).

gwiazda asks "Why should tarot be any different to say Law or Philosophy?". The reply to that is indeed simple, and lies at the very foundation of the criticism: because they are different - both to tarot, and to each other.

Law requires principally knowledge of what the books state, and the manner of applying this knowledge in a court of law, both of which are highly structured. Philosophy is different, and requires a meticulous incision in the nature of whatever is being investigated (whether it be Being, Epistemology, Science, or, of relevance here, Ethics).

Tarot readings are multivarious. For some, they become a psychological-type discussion and discovery, with minimal counselling-type interaction. For others, readings take a form far more similar to the advice spoken from oracular or divinatory practice. For others still, a reading may take the form of imaginative story telling given the imagery in front of one.

What 'approved readings' do is to give the impression that certain forms are fine, other forms are not, and that the development will continue in the direction that those who have placed themselves in the position of presuming that they have the hierachical authority to approve others to their peership have decided. Those same individuals and organisations involved in this charade are indeed, in relation to certified endorsement, giving a false impression to society at large.

gwiazda says earlier that 'TABI "endorse" the reader, in that their readings are approved by their peers (who themselves have been approved by their peers, etc, etc)'.

NO: there is no 'etc and etc.' (implying an infinite, or even very long chain)!!! A small group recently decided amongst themselves that they are ok, and will henceforth confer their own approval on others, and, furthermore (and this is the problem) will seek to establish that their conferral of approval is somehow to be taken as legitimising readers by providing an "approved readers' list" (ie, TABI endorsed readers) to the public.

In a society blinded by ever increasing rules regulating every aspect of personal life and over-wraught with fear-mongering tactics from myriad aspects of life, 'proper monitoring and control' is viewed as a safety net, rather than the barred-wire enclosure it is helping to shape.

In that same post, gwiazda also points to the core of the problem. By what authority can TABI sanction or give 'formal approval' for individuals to read!??!

By all means, I praise the work of all those who encourage or are involved in tarot education and support, including that aspect of the work of TABI members. Similarly, I object, and will continue to speak out, when I see some aspect being promulgated that takes Tarot in an unhealthy direction of controlled domains.

 

[Piper]

Thank you jmd, I could not have said it better.

 

[ribbitcat]

Hi Major Tom

It has been established repeatedly that presentation of the endorsement leaves the impression in the public mind that tarot reading can be certified. You simply refuse to accept it.

Oh come now, Major Tom ! "Established" how, and by whom ? LOL You and JMD are not the public mind.

If the endorsement were presented as you say here, as evidence of personal development, as training, it would not be a problem at all. Yet, you persistently insist the endorsement scheme is not training until it suits you to call it study or 'gaining experience'.

*sigh* I could sit in car and watch someone drive it; I may pick up some idea ie. *learn*, of how it's done; how much I pick up may depend on my on active participation,eg. asking questions etc. However, should I wish to drive a car myself, I would be better off paying a driving instructor to *teach* me. That is the difference between learning and teaching. It's not a good comparison to tarot, but you can get the gist. I didn't call the endorsement process study, BTW, I said that most readers who undergo the process also study.

Originally Posted by ribbitcat
Dear Major Tom, please quote the *full* context.

Major om said :I do.

Actually, in that instance, you didn't.

ribbit : Dear Major Tom, please quote the *full* context. As I said within the post that you quote from, and - as well you know - this kind of thing happens all over the place, not just within tarot communities. In some communities (say, TarotL) it is more likely than in others (say,CompTarot). And I know d*** well that at various times, it has happened and will continue to happen here on AT. Disagree with the majority, and get tromped on. Some people (like myself LOL) are more resilient to this aspect than others.


This is what you had said:

Major Tom: I found this statement revealing too:

Ribbit's original : Yes, you are absolutely right. Two problems with that though - no-one seems to be unhappy with the endorsement process, quite the reverse; secondly, someone being unhappy with aforesaid process would then have to *say* so. And as is usual when people feel criticized and/or are pushed out of their comfort zone, that objector might have to pay a social (?) price, ie. those who upset the applecart end up buried under it. This has happened and continues to happen now and then in several tarot communities, TABI would not be unique if the membership reacted this way.

Major Tom said: This says to me that any TABI member daring to speak up would be ostracised.

All that searching and copying and pasting :-( ....anyone saying anything that the majority do not agree with in any community are likely to get some less than gentle treatment. As I myself am receiving here.

Do I need facts and figures?

It might be helpful when one is making such a broad and sweeping statement

I suspect given the wide distribution of tarot decks and books throughout Britain both in chain bookstores and independent shops that tarot users number in the tens if not hundreds of thousands.

Hmm. That could be applied to any type of book. Buying a poetry book does not make one a poet, however. Who is buying them ? What's the breakdown of figures between dilettantes, teen witches, professional readers, bored housewives etc ?

Is it then your assertion that TABI represent a majority of tarot users in Britain?

ROFL I make no assertions - that seems to be your field If you wish to make a sweeping blanket statement (as you did) then you need to be able to back it up; if you had said to me "Black is white" , say, then I would be asking you for proof

Why do you seem so opposed to an open and frank discussion?

Umm. It must not have been me so actively and frequently participating in this discussion then, since I am so opposed to it LOL it was my Eviller Twin ;-) I have been open and frank, I think.

What I *have* noticed, suddenly (probably because of trudging to and fro to find things in the thread) is how many of my questions have gone unanswered. I *think* I have tried to answer all questions asked of me.

From the start of this debate you've made it clear that you didn't want the topic discussed at all and make me out to be tiresome for simply trying to talk about it.

Show me where I said that I didn't want the topic discussed at all.

And I have never made you out to be tiresome (perish the thought ! - I merely said, that for someone who is severely time-restricted without an eidetic memory, (also a dial-up connection and limited tekky abilities) the amount of repetition I have been forced to do is wearisome.

Originally Posted by ribbitcat:
of course they should go right on over to TABI and see if they can start the same kind of debate in order to have their tail pulled off.

Major Tom said: Gosh - now it's threats! No wonder you don't know what the 'silent majority' think and little birdies tell me that TABI is in turmoil.

What ?! Where's the threat ?? I'm (again - third or fourth time?) saying that this reaction to a challenge to the status quo would not be unusual *anywhere*. *You* have been pulling my tail in this thread ! Yet I am still here ;-) *Personally* speaking, I could care less what the silent majority think - I'm not a mindreader; you want me to know something, then use words.

TABI's in turmoil ? LOL Good exaggerative word. Which community doesn't have a little upset now and then ? A bit of fresh air to blow the cobwebs away does nobody any harm. And you have this on ...hmm, let's see now ...hearsay.

ribbit

 

[ribbitcat]

Hi JMD -

I suppose that with regards to Tarot, there is our individual, communal and civic care that developments and changes are not towards a manner of living with tarot that increases oppression in any form whatsoever.

Endorsement is oppression ?? Strong language indeed, and I would suggest, inappropriate.

In that case, one is called to effectively re-interpret the code in an orwellian manner to something it does not actually permit (as ribbitcat has done above) - because of course the example shows that if it was read as given, it is absurd.

I haven't re-interpreted anything. I used some common sense. I *did* ask some questions in the post to which you refer, which went unanswered.

ribbit

 

[ribbitcat]

A small group recently decided amongst themselves that they are ok, and will henceforth confer their own approval on others, and, furthermore (and this is the problem) will seek to establish that their conferral of approval is somehow to be taken as legitimising readers by providing an "approved readers' list" (ie, TABI endorsed readers) to the public.

No, JMD.
A small group recently-ish decided to offer free readings to the public. They thrashed out some *basic* standards, since the readings were going out under their aegis, and said that TABI readers must meet these *basic* standards. They do not seek to establish that their approval legitimizes readers, if one accepts that their approval does such a thing. They wouldn't have to. That has been done by the querents. Which, oddly enough, was one of Major Tom's ways of defining a decent reader.

In that same post, gwiazda also points to the core of the problem. By what authority can TABI sanction or give 'formal approval' for individuals to read!??!

By the authority of the readers who participate, and their querents.

ribbit

 

[jmd]

Certification, certified endorsement, or any other manner in which tarot is presented as though readers can be legitimately certified is, indeed, oppressive and correctly, I too would suggest, described as inappropriate.

Hence the development of this thread.

As to applying common sense to negate what a rule actually states, of course I can see that - and we are at the very least in agreement that the 'code' or rule is inappropriate as written (as all attempts at codification are!).

To be clear, again, the rule states that:

"All readings remain confidential between the querent and the reader and, if appropriate, the readers mentor."​

By posting on a public forum, with or without the consent of the querent, the reader has not maintained confidentiality of the reading 'between the querent and the reader'.

If the querent was to make a public posting, this would not break the TABI rule, but it does if the reader posts such. Simple, really... and an example as to where codifications can lead.

To reinterpret the rule to state what it does not by applying common sense shows precisely that the rule is not common sensical, despite how it may at first appear.

As ribbitcat suggests that I did not answer a question I was asked in that post, I went back and could find only the following, where I commented and quoted on another TABI code:

I wrote: "Also, any readings that simply, without any other aim, describe a narrative as seen in a spread in fact break its second rule, so are also not permitted by TABI members:

"All readings will aim to empower the client.""​

to which ribbitcat asks: "Not sure what you mean ? A clientless reading is not permitted by TABI's ethics ?"​

I simply mean that the rule states that 'ALL readings will AIM to...', and it therefore follows that a TABI member, having agreed to these codes, will not do a reading that does not have this aim.

Not sure about others, but I find this a rather incredible imposition on readers, and prevents, as I mentioned before, readings that are simply a spoken narrative of the cards at hand in the situation at hand, without any 'aim' as to whether or not it empowers.

In any case, we now have, with this, shifted a little the focus on another major concern.

The first is the encouragement of falsely presenting to the public that readings can be certifiable (or equivalent). The second is far more subtle, and touches on whether or not there can be a 'codification' that should prove acceptable.

Oh! and by the way... if one looks at the number of posts on this and other threads on certification, its advocates speak far more often. So who is the 'majority', and, to quote you above, "Disagree with the majority, and get tromped on" apply to?

_____

Previewing my post, I see that ribbitcat has made another reply, so will briefly add here another note to the immediately (at the time of this writing) preceding post:

You have only proved my point. The 'authority' is that small group amongst themselves, and presumes that there are some 'basic' standards in reading tarot, which it then does indeed present to the public under the banner of a group that seeks, by its very name, to be more than 'A Smallish Group in the UK that Reads in a Manner That They Agree About' - namely, it presents itself as a Tarot Association for the whole British Isles (with overseas members as well).

 

[Major Tom]

I am a Tabi free reader and I have undertaken the endorsement process (Macavity was my mentor incidentally, and yes, Major Tom, he was a damn fine mentor and I did learn a lot in the course of the 25 readings, but that was through incidental interaction with another tarot reader, not through training). I am not a professional reader, do not ‘advertise’ or expect to gain business through this. In fact, I do not know any other endorsed readers who do.

I have no problem at all with the endorsement process and no doubt at all that Macavity 'is a damn fine mentor'. I also have no doubt at all that you benefited from the endorsement process. Nor would I wish to see the free readings cease.

To see a list of those who do advertise that they are endorsed you only need look at the TABI website.

My problem is with the use of the certificate of endorsement as some sort of guarantee to the public that they will get a good tarot reading from the holder.

If it were used as evidence of personal development, which is what it is in truth, there would be no problem.

Instead TABI intend and encourage the public to believe having undergone the process somehow insures a quality reading.

However, by Endorsing our readers, we are making a statement attesting to their competence and ethics, on the basis of their work with the public and the scrutiny of their peers.

Dear Major Tom, please quote the *full* context.

I do quote your full context to the extent that I preserve the meaning of what you are saying. The whole idea is to not repeat lines and lines of text that really add nothing further.

Buying a poetry book does not make one a poet, however. Who is buying them ? What's the breakdown of figures between dilettantes, teen witches, professional readers, bored housewives etc ?

This is about whether or not TABI represent only a tiny fraction of tarot users in the UK. Wouldn't TABI seek to represent anyone with an interest in tarot? For what purpose do we need such a breakdown?

You also asked for facts and figures to back my assertion up. A Google search for 'tarot readers in uk' returns 910,000 entries. Granted some of those entries are for groups rather than individuals and there will be duplications, but it would seem that there are at least thousands of tarot readers in the UK with an on-line presence. That in no way begins to count those without an on-line presence and I personally know several.

I still submit that with a total membership of around 300, TABI represent only a tiny fraction of tarot users in the UK. I only make this assertion to try to convince TABI's leading lights to examine why that might be so.

I make no assertions - that seems to be your field

Isn't it your assertion that there is no problem with the use TABI's endorsement certificate?

There are TABI members who see the problem:

the public is getting the impression that unendorsed, or uncertified readers are less qualified through the very act of endorsement

*Personally* speaking, I could care less what the silent majority think- I'm not a mindreader; you want me to know something, then use words.

This may be the most revealing statement you've made yet. Hopefully TABI leadership do care what the silent majority think. Weren't you once TABI chairperson?

 

[gwiazda]

By all means, I praise the work of all those who encourage or are involved in tarot education and support

How can that be? Since you do not recognise the authority of anyone to approve a reader/reading, it follows that you also can not recognise the ability of anyone to teach the subject, since that would require the teacher to have some sort of authority to do so.

I simply mean that the rule states that 'ALL readings will AIM to...', and it therefore follows that a TABI member, having agreed to these codes, will not do a reading that does not have this aim.

So, using your peculiar logic,can I assume that if you do not subscribe to this ethic, your readings aim to disempower your clients?

Tarot readings are multivarious. For some, they become a psychological-type discussion and discovery, with minimal counselling-type interaction. For others, readings take a form far more similar to the advice spoken from oracular or divinatory practice. For others still, a reading may take the form of imaginative story telling given the imagery in front of one.

OK, so what about English Lit. - the examination and criticism of another's writings, or Creative Writing? On what basis are these taught and examined? Are these not about discussion and discovery, not to mention story telling. I could have easily chosen a whole host of subjects. Physics has been taught for centuries based on theories and incompletely proven "Laws" that appear to make sense of a particuar set of conditions, but it is regarded as a science and therefore pre-supposed to be factual. My point was that there are a great many subjects taught and examined on the basis of opinion, discussion, theory, imagination and often personal interpretation. Most provide a framework and then require the student to use their creativity and imagination. I still don't see the difference.

In a society blinded by ever increasing rules regulating every aspect of personal life and over-wraught with fear-mongering tactics from myriad aspects of life...

Actually, it is people lke you, who presume to tell "the public" what to think that are precisely the problem. This attitude that the public can not be trusted to know what is best for them and need to be enlightened by an opinionated and misinformed individual, is the source of all the fear-mongering and bureaucracy. TABI's endorsement process has always been about the readers - for their benefit and to ensure the quality of representation for the service that TABI offers.

By posting on a public forum, with or without the consent of the querent, the reader has not maintained confidentiality of the reading 'between the querent and the reader'.

I'm confused - which public forum do TABI post readings on?

By what authority can TABI sanction or give 'formal approval' for individuals to read!??!

Once again, you are misinformed - TABI gives formal approval for readers to read on TABI's behalf and as its representatives. For most, this is just kudos.

 

[Sulis]

This whole argument just seems to go round and round and I can't see it ever being resolved.

The folks who think that endorsement is misleading (and even though I am a TABI 'endorsed' reader I count myself amongst this lot) aren't going to change their minds and it seems that TABI aren't going to change their stance either.
This type of discussion just seems to make both 'sides' of the argument put up their defences and refuse to budge with those people from TABI who see nothing wrong with the whole idea of endorsement feeling as if they are being attacked when I really don't think that is the intention.

I suspect from what I've seen from new TABI members who begin the mentoring and endorsement programme that the fact that they can show that they are 'endorsed' by TABI as very, very important to most of them.
Some people seem to want to get their 25 mentored readings done as quickly as possible just so that they can then claim to be 'endorsed' and use the 'TABI Endorsed reader' logo on their own sites.
This is just what I've observed, I'm not attacking anyone for doing that if that's what they want to do.

But having said that, I do think that showing a logo which says 'TABI endorsed reader' on your website or on your ebay ad does make the public think that you have somehow passed some sort of test and does make the public think that being endorsed by The Tarot Association of the British Isles somehow makes you a better reader than those not displaying that logo, otherwise why bother to display it or indeed provide such a logo in the first place?

As I've said before, being 'endorsed' by TABI really doesn't mean that much to me; I don't display anything anywhere that says I have been 'endorsed' by them, I mearly state on my website that I have the honour of being one of TABIs free Tarot readers.
The endorsement was a sort of bi-product of becoming a free reader for me.

I wanted to offer free readings to the public, not to other readers for feedback and becoming a TABI free reader has allowed me to do that.
I know that I could probably offer free readings myself but how could I then also charge for readings through my website?
It's a dilemma and the answer to that dilemma, for me at the moment is to read free for TABI.

I really do believe that someone's ability to read Tarot cannot be measured and certificated and I really do believe that certain groups claiming that it can is misleading (although I think that it's well meant)....

Major Tom and jmd, you have said that the TABI membership should take this up with TABI but the problem is that I think most of the TABI membership are happy with the endorsement process and the fact that they can use the 'endorsed reader' logo on their websites...
Sadly, I think from what I've seen from the TABI site and from their email groups is that I am in a minority......

I've attached an image of the 'endorsed reader' logo that most endorsed readers use on their websites....
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r298/tarotsulis/TABIendorsedlogo.jpg