Tarot Association of the British Isles - courses

[ribbitcat]

Hi JMD -

As to applying common sense to negate what a rule actually states, of course I can see that - and we are at the very least in agreement that the 'code' or rule is inappropriate as written (as all attempts at codification are!).

Constitutions and laws of countries are codified rules. And indeed, this is not to say that they are written perfectly - how many criminals escape scot free because of some technicality ? However, it's better than nothing - which would be anarchy.

To be clear, again, the rule states that:

"All readings remain confidential between the querent and the reader and, if appropriate, the readers mentor."​

By posting on a public forum, with or without the consent of the querent, the reader has not maintained confidentiality of the reading 'between the querent and the reader'.

If the querent was to make a public posting, this would not break the TABI rule, but it does if the reader posts such. Simple, really... and an example as to where codifications can lead.

Yes, but you're being silly on purpose.

As ribbitcat suggests that I did not answer a question I was asked in that post, I went back and could find only the following, where I commented and quoted on another TABI code:

I wrote: "Also, any readings that simply, without any other aim, describe a narrative as seen in a spread in fact break its second rule, so are also not permitted by TABI members:

"All readings will aim to empower the client.""​

to which ribbitcat asks: "Not sure what you mean ? A clientless reading is not permitted by TABI's ethics ?"​

I simply mean that the rule states that 'ALL readings will AIM to...', and it therefore follows that a TABI member, having agreed to these codes, will not do a reading that does not have this aim.

Not sure about others, but I find this a rather incredible imposition on readers, and prevents, as I mentioned before, readings that are simply a spoken narrative of the cards at hand in the situation at hand, without any 'aim' as to whether or not it empowers.

A narrative reading is likely to empower the client simply by clarifying their situation and giving a more objective view than their own.

Oh! and by the way... if one looks at the number of posts on this and other threads on certification, its advocates speak far more often. So who is the 'majority', and, to quote you above, "Disagree with the majority, and get tromped on" apply to?

I'm not sure that's so. And it does tend to be the heavyweights who participate ;-)

_____

Previewing my post, I see that ribbitcat has made another reply, so will briefly add here another note to the immediately (at the time of this writing) preceding post:

You have only proved my point. The 'authority' is that small group amongst themselves, and presumes that there are some 'basic' standards in reading tarot, which it then does indeed present to the public under the banner of a group that seeks, by its very name, to be more than 'A Smallish Group in the UK that Reads in a Manner That They Agree About' - namely, it presents itself as a Tarot Association for the whole British Isles (with overseas members as well).

LOL JMD. How many tarotists are there in Australia ? How many of them are members of the Guild ? And the ATA ? TABI does not say "TOTABI" ie. the Only Tarot Association of the British Isles".

ribbit

 

[ribbitcat]

Hi Major Tom

I have no problem at all with the endorsement process and no doubt at all that Macavity 'is a damn fine mentor'. I also have no doubt at all that you benefited from the endorsement process. Nor would I wish to see the free readings cease.

That's very big of you ;-)

Instead TABI intend and encourage the public to believe having undergone the process somehow insures a quality reading.

I just can't see how you get this. Nowhere does TABI say, "Our readers are better than those who are not our readers and will provide a better reading". If they had made any kind of statement like this, then I'd agree with you.

Isn't it your assertion that there is no problem with the use TABI's endorsement certificate?

LOL no, You assert that there is a problem, and I refute it ;-)

There are TABI members who see the problem:

It seems so So it's up to them to express that to/among TABI.

This may be the most revealing statement you've made yet. Hopefully TABI leadership do care what the silent majority think. Weren't you once TABI chairperson?

ROFL Yes, I was. I stood down shortly before the birth of my second child. And as Chairman I spent a lot of time applying dynamite to posteriors, and with a silent majority, it's like pushing a wet sock uphill LOL As I'm no longer Chair, or even a Panel member, I get to express my *personal* opinion about that aspect of my experience ie. I no longer care, because I don't have to - it's not my job. That's done by the current, very able and energetic Chairman, who has far more tolerance and patience than myself to boot.

ribbit

 

[Major Tom]

The folks who think that endorsement is misleading (and even though I am a TABI 'endorsed' reader I count myself amongst this lot) aren't going to change their minds and it seems that TABI aren't going to change their stance either.

But having said that, I do think that showing a logo which says 'TABI endorsed reader' on your website or on your ebay ad does make the public think that you have somehow passed some sort of test and does make the public think that being endorsed by The Tarot Association of the British Isles somehow makes you a better reader than those not displaying that logo, otherwise why bother to display it or indeed provide such a logo in the first place?

Major Tom and jmd, you have said that the TABI membership should take this up with TABI but the problem is that I think most of the TABI membership are happy with the endorsement process and the fact that they can use the 'endorsed reader' logo on their websites...
Sadly, I think from what I've seen from the TABI site and from their email groups is that I am in a minority......

Thanks for this reply Sulis.

I can see that taking this up with TABI membership can be a very daunting prospect, not least because ribbitcat is likely to jump down your throat for bringing it up.

I must urge you to give it a try nonetheless if you feel as you say you do. The behaviour you describe of rushing to get an 'endorsed' status is unethical but most of the members do not even take advantage of the programme. Those may be the ones who can help you convince others.

Wouldn't it be great if there were a tarot organisation that could represent all the tarot users in Britain?

I no longer care, because I don't have to - it's not my job.

Your vigour in what you see as defense refutes your assertion that you do not care. Nonetheless this statement is also revealing. Let's hope there are enough TABI members that do care.

 

[MeeWah]

Moderating note

Please adhere to the topic, a discussion of TABI's courses & the experiences.

Where *any* organization concerned, the pros & cons inevitably exist due to the diverse individuals & their views.

How a member chooses to consider such an association &/or utilize it a personal decision which need not reflect the intent of the institution nor its views, official or other.

Acknowledged, however, *the promotion of Tarot*. The common ground regardless of any other affiliation or perceptions.

As always, your understanding much appreciated.

~MeeWah
Co-Moderator, Talking Tarot

 

[ribbitcat]

Hi Major Tom, Sulis

I can see that taking this up with TABI membership can be a very daunting prospect, not least because ribbitcat is likely to jump down your throat for bringing it up.

I never have jumped down anyone's throat for bringing up *any* topic that is important to them (although I have certainly questioned their preconceptions, assertions & presumptions - and have got as good as I've given And I can promise you I shan't do so in this case either. Why would I ? As you can see, I'm open to argument ;-) , just haven't seen anything yet to make me change my mind

I must urge you to give it a try nonetheless if you feel as you say you do.

I agree with Major Tom on this, Sulis. You never know who might share your views until you state them

Your vigour in what you see as defense refutes your assertion that you do not care.

Nope, I don't care However, I can't see what appears to be a onesided barrage without trying to balance it out

Nonetheless this statement is also revealing.

All it reveals is that I don't care, and that I was tired of playing Sisyphus.

Let's hope there are enough TABI members that do care.

Absolutely, yes, indeed. I'll be curious to see if there are any ... results ? or perhaps effects might be a better word, amongst TABI members from our debate here. Which, although incredibly frustrating at times I have enjoyed

<< sheathes claws and wanders off til next time ;-) >>

 

[Major Tom]

I agree with Major Tom on this, Sulis. You never know who might share your views until you state them

I'm very glad we've gotten to this point. Thanks very much.

I do apologise if in my passion for my point, I've given offense. That was never my intention.

I think we have many more points of agreement than of disagreement. Let's hope to find many more reasons for inclusion rather than exclusion.

I'll be curious to see if there are any ... results ? or perhaps effects might be a better word, amongst TABI members from our debate here. Which, although incredibly frustrating at times I have enjoyed

I, too, will be watching with interest. I've enjoyed the debate too. Thanks again.

 

[Sulis]

Hi Ribbitcat and Tom

Well the reason why I've never brought up the 'issue' of endorsement is because I don't really see it as that much of a big deal.

I can see your points Major Tom and jmd but on the other hand I can also see why TABI need to have some sort of way of determining whether the people who read for them can actually read.

The thing is that most of the people I've spoken to over at TABI seem fine with the endorsement thing and as I said in my previous posts, some of them see it as something to aim for.
The ones who don't are probably like me and never mention it in any of their advertising.

I think that having a system where you can assess that the people reading for your organisation can actually read Tarot is fine but giving out a certificate isn't as it gives the message to the public that those with a certificate are somehow better readers than those who haven't got one.

When it boils down to it I think we should recognise that we're all on the same side here, promoting Tarot as something that the public shouldn't be afraid of and promoting readers and readings that have a good, ethical foundation...

Whether you agree with certification or not, I think that TABI do good work and they are a decent organisation with a bloody good reputation and that to me is worth more than any certificate or 'endorsement'.

 

[Alison Cross]

Hi all - TABI's website does not just promote its Endorsed Readers - any member of TABI who regards themselves as professional (ie offering readings for money) is entitled to have their details on our website too.

JMD - greetings - are you the same JMD of the ATS with whom I've corresponded re TABI and donations towards the International Tarot Award?

Regards

Alison Cross

 

[jmd]

Quite right, Alison, and as I mentioned before (post 44 and others),

"As in the other threads that deal with endorsements and certification, whether it be TABI or TCB or its equivalents, it is not whether the mutual support, the promotion of tarot, or the value of courses is in any way being questioned.

Quite the contrary. And from my perspective, the mutual support that readers give each other within TABI, and the various courses that numerous people offer (whether or not under the auspices of any association, society, or other organisation), are all positive."​

My criticism in this thread and others is that which touches on certification and endorsement, or, either separately or conjointly, codification, and solely on those aspects, and something that those who know me realise I am quite passionate about.

I have seen its effects in other fields, and we all live in times when these increasing encrochements of 'accreditation', 'endorsement', 'certification', and 'approved as safe' labels in our daily lives should be ever more apparent - and socially destructive.

I also tried to address a little this issue in the May 2006 issue of the ATS Newsletter (On certification, the codification of ethics, and reading Tarot), and stands as the sole reason I was only able to join (apart from the IPCS) the International Tarot Society when it existed, and then became involved in establishing another Association (in order to also organise the 2005 International Tarot Conference) that was not in any manner involved in certification, endorsement or accreditation.

My impression was also that these threads and discussions had made their way to the TABI bulletin boards - but perhaps I read more into a comment made by ribbitcat in either this or another thread some time back.

Quite frankly, I keep hoping that the various Tarot organisations that promulgate and encourage numerous wonderful contributions to the tarot world simply cease to also engage in endorsements, certifications and codifications. But it remains for each organisation and its membership to see this and make its own determinations (and it has certainly never stopped me from advertising various tarot organisations' conferences, courses, or meetings).

Good to see you on these boards after your huge involvement in TABI - so welcome indeed!

 

[ribbitcat]

Hi JMD

I
My impression was also that these threads and discussions had made their way to the TABI bulletin boards - but perhaps I read more into a comment made by ribbitcat in either this or another thread some time back.

They had indeed made their way over there - I myself carried their sorry carcases Obviously, no-one was bothered enough to return the remains ...

ribbitcat