Tarot Publishing Business

[alejandro]

Hello everybody!

I'm new at the AT forum and may be my questions could sound naive but I would be grateful if someone could give some info on that.

My primary business is filmmaking but I'd love to start a small Tarot publishing venture in Ukraine, Eeastern Europe. This is still a complete New World for the Tarot and every opportunity is open. My approach is mainly producer's or rather publisher's one, so the questions are:

1) how and how much artists in Europe are paid for the work? Are there different systems of payment? Say: flat fee for commission or sharing all sales profits? What is the range of royalties? How much gets a novice artist and how much could expect a published artist? Is there a big difference in say Lo Scarabeo or US Games royalties and smaller publishers' ? Does the royalty or fee depend on the circulation amount? Other factors?

2) how the distribution is usually organized? In filmmaking we have a quite simple formula: from every ticket sold in a cinema the cinema itself gets 50%, distributor gets 25% and producer gets the rest - 25% (this is for Ukraine). Is there any similar formula for Tarot publishing? Say, how much publisher gets from every sold deck?

3) is it acceptable practice that smaller publishers could suggest original artwork to bigger publishers? or maybe the bigger will only talk to the artists? in other words could the publisher be an agent for an artist in relation to the bigger publishers?

Thanks for any ideas on the topics.

 

[baba-prague]

Hello everybody!

1) how and how much artists in Europe are paid for the work?

I'll pass on this one as we don't discuss in public what we pay. I don't think any established publisher will tell you as it might be seen as revealing contractual details - but I could be wrong. Some artists here may be able to say more perhaps.

2) how the distribution is usually organized?

Varies a good deal. If you think in terms of getting 30-35% on average of the retail price (out of which you need to pay all production, art and shipping costs - and marketing costs - distributors will do the sales and a bit of marketing, but marketing is mostly up to the publisher) that's a fair indication. Oh well, sounds like at least it's better than the film industry!

3) is it acceptable practice that smaller publishers could suggest original artwork to bigger publishers? or maybe the bigger will only talk to the artists? in other words could the publisher be an agent for an artist in relation to the bigger publishers?

I think you've answered your own question. In that case you would be acting not as a publisher but as a artists' agent. Some publishers, such as Llewellyn, actually state (I think) that they prefer to deal with artists direct and not through an agent. But again, the attitude and approach to this will no doubt vary. To speak for ourselves, we would be unlikely to consider any artist who was not already published and/or established in some substantial way - simply because our experience with artists who don't have this sort of track-record is that they rarely understand the sheer size of a tarot deck project - or can be relied on to complete it. It's a big undertaking - many artists produce less than 78 images in their entire lifetime after all.

I'll now be very interested to hear other people's replies - good topic!

 

[alejandro]

Varies a good deal. If you think in terms of getting 30-35% on average of the retail price (out of which you need to pay all production, art and shipping costs - and marketing costs - distributors will do the sales and a bit of marketing, but marketing is mostly up to the publisher) that's a fair indication. Oh well, sounds like at least it's better than the film industry!

Thanks, that's already something. I've found the post from RiccardoLS in other thread saying their budget for a deck is about 10-15 thousand euros. So now I can figure something about marketing and royalties knowing the costs of printing in Ukraine and Europe.

 

[baba-prague]

Thanks, that's already something. I've found the post from RiccardoLS in other thread saying their budget for a deck is about 10-15 thousand euros. So now I can figure something about marketing and royalties knowing the costs of printing in Ukraine and Europe.

Yes, but I would check with Ric whether he meant that as the total budget. It sounds too low to me if they are including art costs, printing costs and also marketing. But I could be wrong

 

[alejandro]

Print Costs

I've asked several printers in Ukraine to give the costs calculation for the average deck of 78 cards (300 g/sm, UV, die-cut, box, LWB, collation) and the average costs I have for the moment are:

2100 Euros for 1000
3910 Euros for 3000

Some give lower, some give higher. Would be interesting to learn similar costs in different countries

 

[baba-prague]

What you'd need to tell us to make price comparisons meaningful is what size the cards are (and do they have to be a size that's already "standard" for the printer) and what cardstock you are using - i.e. is it proper playing card stock (carbon internal layer) or not? In our experience card size and format makes a big difference to cost.

This seems way too low to us by the way. Have you actually seen examples of the quality they are producing for that?

 

[HudsonGray]

That does seem low, does it include lamination or varnish of some sort? And corner rounding? Those prices are usually tacked on as extras. Oh, and does it include cellophane wrapping for the deck as well? Some quotes automatically do, some don't.

 

[sacredashes]

I asked a graphic designer friend of mine about printing decks. W/out the LWB, just the cards alone and the sample he showed me was similiar to playing cards. Laminated, rounded corners and the playing cards he showed me were pretty good quality; he estimated the cost to be on average $5/- per deck for maybe 500 decks, the costs would be lower if the volume increases. That's inclusive of graphic touch-ups I think.

I gather it's pretty standard everywhere, you can reduce your costs by printing bulk. That's the price in Singapore but I know for a fact, if I take this to a printer, say in Malaysia, which is just across the border, the prices may be even lower because of exchange rates, cost of living, etc.

 

[baba-prague]

Yes, but again, I think these quotes may be for playing-card sized cards. The size and format of cards (whether or not they are a standard shape or a special) makes a very big difference to cost. If you print tarot cards at playing card size (and in a standard playing card, more squarish format) the cost IS much cheaper.

It's great to have the other comments on this thread, and many thanks for that, but without specifying at least the size of the cards, price comparisons don't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[alejandro]

What you'd need to tell us to make price comparisons meaningful is what size the cards are (and do they have to be a size that's already "standard" for the printer) and what cardstock you are using - i.e. is it proper playing card stock (carbon internal layer) or not? In our experience card size and format makes a big difference to cost.

This seems way too low to us by the way. Have you actually seen examples of the quality they are producing for that?

The card size which I asked to calculate the costs for was 120x66 mm which is big enough for the Tarot. Could not tell precisely what cardstock was calculated. It's difficult for me to translate our printers' slang into English. There was no cellophane wrapping but rounded corners and collation were included.