The Temperaments

[Barleywine]

I am Pisces rising 26 degrees - is there a chance that i could take on some of Aries attributes? - i've always thought i had some Aries. I suppose, I have Aries in my first house, as well as Taurus, and there i have the sun.

Could very well be, as there is a perspective (based on Michel Gauquelin's work) that the incoming influence of every house starts ~5 degrees before the actual degree on the cusp. At one point, Rob Hand divided the preceding house into sixths and used the last sixth as "turning over" into the next house. I'm not sure where he stands on that today.

 

[Minderwiz]

Rather than starting a new thread, I thought I'd jump on this one. What I'm really looking for is a good, thorough exposition (a table would be even better) on the planetary and sign "natures" (e.g. "hot/dry/fiery/choleric," "cold/moist/watery/phlegmatic') as derived from the four "humours" (choleric, sanguine. phlegmatic and melancholic). I'm trying to make sense of Agrippa's and Fludd's divergent assignments of the planets and signs to the four elements through the attributions to the geomantic figures. I've already explored Lilly, James Wilson's 1880 Dictionary of Astrology and Tetrabiblos. I have a Geomancy thread going on the Divination forum and am trying to tie this subject in to the astro-geomancy discussion. Does anyone know a better source?

There isn't a definitive answer to what you're looking for. Temperament was in use for 2,000 years and it's not surprising that within that period you get some variations - not major ones but nevertheless variations.

Most of these relate to Mercury and Venus - both of which have something of a dual nature stemming from their alternate roles as morning and evening stars - basically whether they are oriental or occidental.

Signs are fairly strait forward, Air signs are Sanguine, Water signs are Phlegmatic, Fire signs are Choleric and Earth signs are Melancholic. There can be fine tuning, using the quadraplicities or seasonal factors, or other characteristics of the sign.. For example Sagittarius will be less choleric as an Autumnal sign, than Leo, which is an Estival sign. However some writers subdivide signs, for example, Capricornus is a sea goat, and you will find references to the latter half of the sign being cold and moist, rather than cold and dry.

Dorian Greenbaum's book on Temperament is a good guide. There's also a good chapter in Avelar and Ribeiro's 'The Heavenly Spheres. But neither of these aims to be comprehensive of every single writer.

Edited to add:

For the planets:

Moon is Cold and Moist
Sun is Hot and Dry
Mars is Hot and Dry (but drier than Sun)
Jupiter is Hot and Moist
Saturn is Cold and Dry

Venus can be Cold and Moist or Hot and Moist depending on author and sometimes depending on orientality.

Mercury is far more difficult to pin down as it takes characteristics of any planet in aspect. Again it's temperament for some authors varies according to orientality, or sign placement. Cool and Dry or simply Dry is a fair description of it's temperament.

 

[Barleywine]

There isn't a definitive answer to what you're looking for. Temperament was in use for 2,000 years and it's not surprising that within that period you get some variations - not major ones but nevertheless variations.

Most of these relate to Mercury and Venus - both of which have something of a dual nature stemming from their alternate roles as morning and evening stars - basically whether they are oriental or occidental.

Signs are fairly strait forward, Air signs are Sanguine, Water signs are Phlegmatic, Fire signs are Choleric and Earth signs are Melancholic. There can be fine tuning, using the quadraplicities or seasonal factors, or other characteristics of the sign.. For example Sagittarius will be less choleric as an Autumnal sign, than Leo, which is an Estival sign. However some writers subdivide signs, for example, Capricornus is a sea goat, and you will find references to the latter half of the sign being cold and moist, rather than cold and dry.

Dorian Greenbaum's book on Temperament is a good guide. There's also a good chapter in Avelar and Ribeiro's 'The Heavenly Spheres. But neither of these aims to be comprehensive of every single writer.

Thanks for the tips. That would make Agrippa's assignment of the geomantic figures to the elements according to their ruling signs a more reliable way to go, with the understanding that the Sun and Moon rule two figures each, creating a slight imbalance in Fire and Water, and Caput Draconis and Cauda Draconis are kind of "wild cards" with no established sign attributions that anyone can agree on. None of this really affects practical use, I'm just trying to run it down to complete my understanding.

 

[Barleywine]

For the planets:

Moon is Cold and Moist
Sun is Hot and Dry
Mars is Hot and Dry (but drier than Sun)
Jupiter is Hot and Moist
Saturn is Cold and Dry

Venus can be Cold and Moist or Hot and Moist depending on author and sometimes depending on orientality.

Mercury is far more difficult to pin down as it takes characteristics of any planet in aspect. Again it's temperament for some authors varies according to orientality, or sign placement. Cool and Dry or simply Dry is a fair description of it's temperament.

Thanks for the update; it agrees with my reading. In addition, Lilly pointed out that the Sun is more "temperate" than Mars, that Jupiter is "temperately" hot, and that Venus is "temperately" cold, partaking somewhat of both Water and Air. Also, the Moon can vary in temperament according to its phase, which I believe is one of the things you were alluding to earlier. My goal in applying all of this to astro-geomancy is to meld the planetary temperaments with the figures and their associated signs in a way that I can see the underlying reasons for; so far it's been an uphill battle. Perhaps I just haven't found the right books yet.