Tighter Natal aspects

[saren]

I tightened the aspect percentage in my natal chart, as I understand the exact aspects +-3 degrees are most important, I notice just a few, however I am unable to find psychological information online (there is some general information + the interpertations I made myself), but I'd like to learn more about:

moon square saturn 4°42 - VERY important, how is it related to a marriage problem? and I have to learn to value myself more? However, if I value myself doesn't it lead to selfishness, (self-conceited egotism)? It is not as tight as the aspects below


Mars Quincunx Ascendant 0°26 control anger with others, cooperate with others.

Chiron Quincunx Neptune 0° avoid reality that's unpleasant, avoids work requiring contact with reality. I have to learn to Strike a balance, vent imagination without giving up reality. Don't malinger.

Chiron Quincunx Pluto 1° confront weaknesses, recognize own power,

venus square mars 2° aggressive/impatient with others, lacking emotional fullfillment. block sending/recieving love

mercury quintile mars 0°

Chiron Quincunx Mercury 2° I stir the minds of others, confusion over the impact of my lesson to others, i impact people without realizing.

Neptune Sextile Pluto 1° people who drop out of the system, bring social change, change govt, etc..

Saturn Square Ascendant 0°41 - you are withdrawn, feelings of unworthiness/self- doubt, overly critical of yourself and your own efforts.

Mercury Conjunction Pluto 1°10 Probing mind, deep conversation, researcher. This one i understand best, and i like it.

p.s. please let me know how I can upload my chart?

 

[dadsnook2000]

Comments.

saren, I've read your comments and I'm not sure my comments will help you. In the first place I choose not to initially focus on the tightness of an aspect although I do not disagree with you that those are very important.

My first thought about a chart is the presence of any angular planets and 1) how close they may be to the angles, and 2) how they relate to each other. Most people tend to express their (if any) angular planets more forcefully on a day-to-day basis.

My second thought is what strong aspect patterns are present? Is their a tight conjoining or a tight grouping of three or more planets in an area of the chart? Is there a T-Square which is often an organizing and driving theme in a chart which can shape the directions that a person takes in life.

Then I start to look at tight aspects. The issue with say, for example, a tight square and a tight trine is just how are they fitted into the MC-Asc. expression, the angular planets, the primary patterns (if any)? They can contribute, importantly, to the complexities that make up one's life but they may not shape primary expression and day to day attitudes.

So, in conclusion, I'm not saying that your focus on tight aspects is wrong. I am saying that one has to approach a chart in a top-down sense, getting the whole "feel" of the chart before putting together a detailed picture. In the end, the whole person determines how the pieces of the personality and character or accomodated and blended. Dave

 

[Minderwiz]

I'm not sure I can help either, but for different reasons to Dave's (though I don't disagree with anything he said at all, in terms of a psychological approach). Firstly, I don't use a psychological approach, so anything I said there would be someone else's definition and not something I particularly agreed with. Secondly you don't give signs or houses, so even if I did follow that approach, I'd have difficulty giving any meaningful guidance.

As a general point I would ignore the minor aspects between outer planets or outer planets and Chiron. I don't think they would add anything meaningful, even for an advanced practitioner (though that might be arguable) but for a beginner they are best left in the textbook.

The Pluto Neptune aspect likewise is best left aside. Get an ephemeris (either online or a book) and look up how long Pluto and Neptune are in sextile within 3 degrees either way and ask yourself if everyone born during that period is going to be a drop out? At a mundane level (nations and countries) the social change and government changes might be arguable but again there are other factors to look at first.

The other minor aspects are, well....minor. That is you need a framework already established for your chart before you start to consider them. Quincunxes are especially awkward because modern Astrology cannot easily differentiate between the various types.,

That leaves you the Saturn squares, the Venus/Mars square and the Mercury Pluto conjunction as the ones to look at (having taken Dave's advice on the order in which you address chart features).

To upload your chart, when you are composing a reply or new thread look below the text entry box, and you will see a section marked Additional Options. You will see a button titled Manage Attachments. in small print above it will tell you the valid file extensions that you can use but basically you can upload a graphic file in bmp, jpeg or gif. Clicking on the button not only tells you that the maximum allowed size in pixels is 1024 x 768 and the size in KB is 305.1 It also provides a button to choose a file from your computer and also a button to upload it. Once you've done that you can close that window. The file is now attached to your post.

 

[dadsnook2000]

One short comment

Minderwiz noted that some of the outer planets maintain a position or an aspectual relationship for long periods of time due to their rate of movement. One of the few software interpretive programs that I have worked with that includes a reference to the time period an outer planet will be in a sign or house or in an aspectual relationship is Kepler. That program will say something like "you are part of a group who will be influenced during a seven year period to find a unique expression for . . . These words give perspective to what is said in the interpretation.

Our inner planets (us as individuals) function within a larger framework (the outer planets and their expression through society). We are often required by circumstances to interact with the larger world through our workplace, social groups, communities, etc. But, we do tend to act first as individuals. We can most easily see the influence of the outer planets through our parents and how their lives were shaped in some ways by the economic or social structures (financial depressions, wars, political policies) they grew up in and raised their family within. Its a fascinating issue to review and can help put some portions of astrology into a better perspective. Dave

 

[Barleywine]

My first thought about a chart is the presence of any angular planets and 1) how close they may be to the angles, and 2) how they relate to each other. Most people tend to express their (if any) angular planets more forcefully on a day-to-day basis.

I have an instructive "astrological vignette" to support Dave's comment, since I work much the same way. My Mars is angular and elevated, within a few degrees of the MC in the 10th house, and virtually unaspected. I might have been a really demanding, impatient, arrogant slave-driver of a boss, but it's in the cool-headed, methodical Virgo and is in a tight (within a few minutes of arc), creative quintile aspect with Mercury and Venus from my 8th-house stellium in Cancer, as well as in close trine to my 6th house North Node in Taurus. The Sun is part of that stellium but it's 4 degrees out from exact quintile to Mars, a gap that I normally wouldn't take for a minor aspect but do since it's involved in the larger conjunction complex. While I was still an exacting supervisor, I was also an energetic facilitator of staff success. Realistically, though, I was much more proficient and comfortable as a senior technical writer for much of my lengthy career. This is just by way of illustration; there are certainly other, non-work-related interpretations that could be put on this. For example, I'm also a trained graphic (as opposed to "painterly") artist with a penchant for boldly colored, vividly evocative designs full of symbolism and veiled meaning. However, from a career perspective it could be easily argued that Mars is the chart ruler.

Unfortunately, as a non-subscriber I can't post attachments, but I did put my chart details (minus intermediate house cusps) in the data thread.

 

[dadsnook2000]

For Barlywine

You do have an interesting chart. Mars angular in the 10 is your only angular planet within a conventional chart. One of my innovations, developed while working with cyclic charts such as solar returns, is to apply the Asc.-to-MC arc from the MC towards the Desc. area of the chart. I term this point the "Co-Descendant". This configuration, when a planet is at the CD, places the MC at the Asc/CD midpoint, forcing the MC to adjust to the planet at the CD point.

In your chart this CD point conjoins your Uranus/Ceres. So, the question is, "Do you have strong parental or partnership (would-be partners, included) pressures to conform to their standards and off-beat way of viewing situations? If so, how does this tie into the Moon opposite Mercury/Venus (and the square to Juno)? Conflicts with a woman, a mother?

As I said, interesting. Dave.

PS. I am in MA.

 

[Barleywine]

In your chart this CD point conjoins your Uranus/Ceres. So, the question is, "Do you have strong parental or partnership (would-be partners, included) pressures to conform to their standards and off-beat way of viewing situations? If so, how does this tie into the Moon opposite Mercury/Venus (and the square to Juno)? Conflicts with a woman, a mother? PS.

Actually, my mother was the soul of conventionality, a very strong, matriarchal Virgo personality, but I unfortunately don't have an accurate (or rectified) chart for her. (I was the off-beat one ) With nine kids and me the oldest, she rapidly became a hands-off parent. But that doesn't mean there weren't significant conflicts. When I was 19 and working that summer to save for my second year of college, she stole all the money she was supposed to be putting in the bank for me and spent it on household needs. I didn't find out it was gone until I went to pay my tuition. Needless to say, that colored our relationship for the rest of her days. I should look at major transits and progressions to the CD and the shifted MC for that time to see if it shows anything interesting.

My wife of 32 years, on the other hand, is a predominantly Gemini-Libra mental/emotional type with a 1st house stellium that falls into my 7th house. Our "karmic bond," if you will, appears to be that our Ascendent/Descendent axes are mirror-images of one another, almost to the minute. I've done both synestry and composite studies of our charts as well as numerous return charts for the relationship, but haven't looked at them from that perspective for a long time. Now that I have a Windows-capable chart generating program I will be doing a lot more.

 

[Barleywine]

Here is a re-post of something I just posted on the Astrology Weekly forum. It pretty much covers how I choose to work with natal chart orbs.

After many years of practice I settled on a somewhat pragmatic and "elastic" approach to orbs. I generally start out with +/- 5 degrees for major aspects (a bit less for sextiles), and +/- a couple of degrees for minor aspects, and see what's there. If a number of important aspects are close but not quite "in," I'll stretch a bit, especially if they would form a major aspect pattern (T-square, Grand Trine, Yod, etc.); +/- 7 or 8 degrees for majors and +/- 3 degrees for minors is about my limit of comfort, though, unless the chart really begs for more. Conversely, if there's just too much "stuff," I may back down on minor aspect orbs. I'm really looking for significant aspect "complexes" (to steal Rob Hand's word) that reveal clear patterns of reinforcement or divergence. A lot depends on how much is going on in the chart. If there are almost no major aspects in the chart, I may relax the individual orbs a bit, starting with the Sun, Moon and other "personal planets," but am careful not to get too sloppy overall. I'm more likely to put the minor aspects in the spotlight under these circumstances, since not every person is a dramatic example of the "major aspect" type.

This is all very personal, though, and based on my own experience. I'm sure others use wider orbs than these in natal interpretation to good effect. The dynamics of any given chart are really what dictate the best approach to use, in my opinion. Some come into sharp focus with quite narrow orbs, while others require a more generous dispensation. I would rather start narrow and loosen up until I get a coherent picture.

 

[Barleywine]

PS. I am in MA.

Do you attend the NCGR meetings? I was a member for a number of years but dropped out since the travel to meetings and seminars got to be too much. They used to hold them in the Belmont, MA library, or occasionally in Cambridge, as I recall. I do know a couple of people who are (or were) active in the hierarchy but haven't seen them in a long time. Their presentations were always well-done, but I was much more closely connected with the Astrological Society of Connecticut when I lived there.

 

[Minderwiz]

This is all very personal, though, and based on my own experience. I'm sure others use wider orbs than these in natal interpretation to good effect. The dynamics of any given chart are really what dictate the best approach to use, in my opinion. Some come into sharp focus with quite narrow orbs, while others require a more generous dispensation. I would rather start narrow and loosen up until I get a coherent picture.

We all add our own personal approach to chart interpretation in general and aspect analysis in particular, and as far as I can see that's always been the case. By that I don't mean a Queen of Hearts view ('A word means whatever I want it to mean, no more and no less) but that we add our own touches to the Art.

I now tend to go about it from the opposite way, that is from the general - looking at whole sign aspects (at least to identify them) and then look for quite tight aspects afterwards. However I only use the classic 7 so it's easier to do that preliminary work and then I keep to the major aspects. I rarely take out of sign aspects unless they involve the Moon, are applying and will perfect in the early degrees of the sign (that is they will at least perfect on the day of birth).

In your case there's one separating aspect I'd note - you were born on the day of the Full Moon and a Full Moon on the Equinox too.

Although I don't use a modern approach to the minor 'aspects', I do consider them later on in my analysis, though only the inconjuncts (which are not strictly speaking aspects) which may involve some traditional element of 'beholding', e.g. through antisica - for example your Moon/Jupiter 'conjunction' would not normally qualify for me, because it's separating and out of sign but it is in an applying antiscion -so it's actually quite meaningful on second sight. Also your Mercury and Venus are in contra-antiscion to Jupiter - giving Jupiter some real prominence through these three not so obvious connections.

Like Dave I wouldn't start with aspects, indeed they'd be quite low on my list. So, again using your chart as an example, I'd note that 5 of the 7 planets are peregrine, and Moon and Saturn are also in detriment. Only Venus and Jupiter are in any dignity and both are retrograde. Peregrine planets are travellers, in some way or other, not settlers.

Sign placements are 4 Moveable (Cardinal) 1 Fixed and 2 Common (Mutable) with the Ascendant in a Fixed sign. The emphasis is on change , conversion and speed with a real element of loosening of ties. The predominance of Peregrine planets suggests that there's a lot of travelling (not necessarily geographic in nature) and at the mercy of events. That can work out to your advantage but not through your own control - others tend to have to help as mentors, guides or benefactors - or partners. Interestingly your Ascendant/Descendant axis is in fixed signs. Stability is rather lacking though in a spiritual sense, it's what you're looking for - with Saturn in the ninth in a fixed sign. But I guess it might not be something that's easy to achieve - the Moon rules the ninth cusp and she is the epitome of change.

Thereafter, I'd look at temperament, your mind and manners

All of those could involve some aspects (e.g. to your Ascendant or planets in the Ascendant or to Sun or Moon) but not necessarily so.

Lastly I'd look at aspects as I looked at particular areas of life and of course in forecasts.