Tighter Natal aspects

[Barleywine]

Like Dave I wouldn't start with aspects, indeed they'd be quite low on my list.

Likewise here. The aspect delineation is really almost the last part of the detailed analysis. The broader picture is what sets the stage for it, and a lot can be learned before you get to that point. I also don't focus heavily on isolated aspects (and certainly not on "minor" ones) that don't contribute in a meaningful way to that overall "gestalt." They might be worth mentioning in the later stages, but I look for coherence across the entire chart first.

You use a couple of terms I'm not familiar with and I assume they're from a traditional vocabulary. I will be moving in that direction; presently I don't spend a lot of time on "outer planet" contacts and will probably dispense with them as I converge on a more traditional outlook driven by its pertinence to my astro-geomancy experiments (which only use "aspect" by sign/house position and not by actual degrees of separation).

 

[Minderwiz]

Oops, I was in a bit of a hurry to get out when I made the post - I needed some exercise and the last few days have been miserable. In my rush I missed out an important step that I'd follow. Like Dave, I'd have a look for the Ascendant ruler and planets in the Ascendant, followed by other angular planets and the MC, Descendant and IC rulers.

In your case only Mars is angular but he's also important as the Ascendant ruler. Also by sign he aspects the Ascendant (sextile), which is always a positive sign. I've already mentioned Venus as the Descendant ruler, Mercury rules the MC and Jupiter the IC, and as we've seen he's more involved than first sight suggests.

use a couple of terms I'm not familiar with and I assume they're from a traditional vocabulary. I will be moving in that direction; presently I don't spend a lot of time on "outer planet" contacts and will probably dispense with them as I converge on a more traditional outlook driven by its pertinence to my astro-geomancy experiments (which only use "aspect" by sign/house position and not by actual degrees of separation).

Oops again! I's assuming that you are referring to antiscia and peregrine planet, but if it's something else please let me know.

Antscia are signs (and degrees) which are equally distant from one of the Solstice points - they share the characteristic of having the same length of daylight. For example, take your Jupiter at 23 Sagittarius. It is 7 degrees from the Winter Solstice point (0 Capricorn). It's antiscion is 7 degrees Capricorn (the same distance but on the other side of the Solstice point). The Moon is 4 degrees Capricorn but is applying to the antiscion of Jupiter. Antiscia are treated as similar to a Conjunction. The difference of 3 degrees is well within the orb of the Moon (I attach orbs to planets not to the aspects).

A Contra-antiscion is the opposite point of the zodiac to the antiscion, so for Jupiter it's Contra-antsicion would be 7 degrees Cancer (exactly opposite 7 degrees Capricorn). Mercury and Venus are at 3 degrees and 4 degrees Cancer, and again 7 degrees Cancer falls in their orb. The difference however is that as both are retrograde, they are separating, not applying. A Contra-antiscion is treated as similar to an opposition. Incidentally the Sun at 0 Cancer is applying to the Contra-antiscion and it's orb is wider than any other planet. So Jupiter also 'sees' your Sun.

Now Ptolemy specifically says that planets in Antiscia (or Contra-antiscia) are 'beholding' - they 'see' each other and 'aspect' comes from the Latin, aspectare, to view or see. You will find Antiscia and Contra-antiscia can apply to what modern Astrologers refer to as semi-sextiles and quincunxes but not to all of them!. The ones that are not in such a relationship are inconjunct and do not behold each other. So there's a real difference here between a modern and traditional view of whether a semi-sextile or quincunx are inconjunct. I try not to use the modern terms unless I have to, as I prefer to give a clear indication of whether the planets 'see' each other or are inconjunct.

Peregrine means a traveller or wanderer - as in Peregrine Falcon - at worst they can indicate a situation of being lost or confused (familiar feelings for travellers) but they can strike it lucky with a good guide or a well managed hotel - Astrologically their sign ruler, exaltation ruler or house ruler (if the sign on the House cusp is different from the sign the planet is in). In your case Mars' is in Virgo, where Mercury is both sign and exaltation ruler and also rules the tenth. However with a squeeze, Venus is the triplicity ruler, and she is one of the only two planets in positive essential dignity. She might help, if she can.

 

[Barleywine]

I's assuming that you are referring to antiscia and peregrine planet, but if it's something else please let me know.

Antscia are signs (and degrees) which are equally distant from one of the Solstice points - they share the characteristic of having the same length of daylight. For example, take your Jupiter at 23 Sagittarius. It is 7 degrees from the Winter Solstice point (0 Capricorn). It's antiscion is 7 degrees Capricorn (the same distance but on the other side of the Solstice point). The Moon is 4 degrees Capricorn but is applying to the antiscion of Jupiter. Antiscia are treated as similar to a Conjunction. The difference of 3 degrees is well within the orb of the Moon (I attach orbs to planets not to the aspects).

A Contra-antiscion is the opposite point of the zodiac to the antiscion, so for Jupiter it's Contra-antsicion would be 7 degrees Cancer (exactly opposite 7 degrees Capricorn). Mercury and Venus are at 3 degrees and 4 degrees Cancer, and again 7 degrees Cancer falls in their orb. The difference however is that as both are retrograde, they are separating, not applying. A Contra-antiscion is treated as similar to an opposition. Incidentally the Sun at 0 Cancer is applying to the Contra-antiscion and it's orb is wider than any other planet. So Jupiter also 'sees' your Sun.

Now Ptolemy specifically says that planets in Antiscia (or Contra-antiscia) are 'beholding' - they 'see' each other and 'aspect' comes from the Latin, aspectare, to view or see.

The idea of "beholding" brings in a boatload of subtleties that would seen to apply even when "normal" aspect and orb considerations aren't operative. But, for purposes of the Sun-Jupiter opposition, how does the 7 degrees between 23 Gemini and 0 Cancer differ from the 7 degrees between 0 Cancer and 7 Cancer, given that the Sun would enjoy the same larger orb in either direction? Because the former is across signs and can't be "seen?" I've always been a bit luke-warm about the Sun-Jupiter opposition, and I certainly never took a conjunction between Moon and Jupiter at 11 degrees of orb; but this makes sense.

Another question: it appears that the anti-scion is taken on the side of the chart in which a planet is closest to one or the other of the solstice points. Suppose the planet is precisely square the 0 Cancer-0 Capricorn axis, at 0 degrees of Cardinality? Would it matter which one you went to, except in what you call the points?

And finally (this with a wink, a nudge and a grin) isn't "contra-antiscion" a double-negative that would cancel out, leaving us with "scion"? Kind of like if long-lost cousin Harry showed up to claim the inheritance since both sons had killed one another in a duel?

Peregrine means a traveller or wanderer - as in Peregrine Falcon - at worst they can indicate a situation of being lost or confused (familiar feelings for travellers) but they can strike it lucky with a good guide or a well managed hotel - Astrologically their sign ruler, exaltation ruler or house ruler (if the sign on the House cusp is different from the sign the planet is in). In your case Mars' is in Virgo, where Mercury is both sign and exaltation ruler and also rules the tenth. However with a squeeze, Venus is the triplicity ruler, and she is one of the only two planets in positive essential dignity. She might help, if she can.

Hmm, can you explain the "mechanics" of what makes a peregrine planet and what the ramifications are? James Wilson says: "A peregrine planet is one posited in a sign where it has no essential dignity of any kind. It is reckoned a debility of 5 degrees." Is this a "debility" from the standpoint of orb to be applied when reckoning aspects? Wilson says elsewhere that Mars has 7 degrees of orb; would peregrine whittle it down to 2 degrees? I've always taken both the planet and the aspect into consideration (kind of like the Germans, who love the "hard" aspects and sniff at trines, sextiles, quintiles, etc.); this would introduce another factor. What would be the role of Mercury (and perhaps Venus) in "guiding" the peregrine Mars? I certainly see a role for the very tight quintile aspect between them given that Mars has no other important planetary contacts.

 

[Minderwiz]

The idea of "beholding" brings in a boatload of subtleties that would seen to apply even when "normal" aspect and orb considerations aren't operative. But, for purposes of the Sun-Jupiter opposition, how does the 7 degrees between 23 Gemini and 0 Cancer differ from the 7 degrees between 0 Cancer and 7 Cancer, given that the Sun would enjoy the same larger orb in either direction? Because the former is across signs and can't be "seen?" I've always been a bit luke-warm about the Sun-Jupiter opposition, and I certainly never took a conjunction between Moon and Jupiter at 11 degrees of orb; but this makes sense.

23 Gemini and 7 Cancer would be antiscia. However, you have no planet at
either extreme (though you do have the ninth House cusp). You have a group of planets in early Cancer (Sun, Mercury and Venus) but these are all on the same side of the solstice line. However if you take the opposition to 23 Gemini, you get Jupiter - that gives a planet at the contra antiscion point. Orbs for antiscia are usually taken as the same as for a Conjunction, or opposition for Contra-antiscia. All three Cancer planets would have a Contra-antiscia orb which included Jupiter. The only difference between them is that Mercury and Venus are retrograde, and therefore moving away from the contra-antiscia point, whereas the Sun being direct is moving towards it, which is why I dealt with Mercury and Venus separately from the Sun.

Another question: it appears that the anti-scion is taken on the side of the chart in which a planet is closest to one or the other of the solstice points. Suppose the planet is precisely square the 0 Cancer-0 Capricorn axis, at 0 degrees of Cardinality? Would it matter which one you went to, except in what you call the points?

Not in the slightest! Indeed you could do all your measurements from one Solstice point and you would have the same results in terms of equal daylight time between the two antiscia points. It's just easier to measure from the nearest Solstice point.

And finally (this with a wink, a nudge and a grin) isn't "contra-antiscion" a double-negative that would cancel out, leaving us with "scion"? Kind of like if long-lost cousin Harry showed up to claim the inheritance since both sons had killed one another in a duel?

Antiscion comes from the Greek Antiskion - skion is a shadow and an antiskion is the shadow cast by a planet at the equal but opposite (anti) degree from the solstice point. It's best thought of as a mirror image, which reverses laterally any image that it reflects. Because it's a shadow, you can't have two points in antiscia, but a point such as a house cusp can be in the 'shadow' of a planet.

Hmm, can you explain the "mechanics" of what makes a peregrine planet and what the ramifications are? James Wilson says: "A peregrine planet is one posited in a sign where it has no essential dignity of any kind. It is reckoned a debility of 5 degrees." Is this a "debility" from the standpoint of orb to be applied when reckoning aspects? Wilson says elsewhere that Mars has 7 degrees of orb; would peregrine whittle it down to 2 degrees? I've always taken both the planet and the aspect into consideration (kind of like the Germans, who love the "hard" aspects and sniff at trines, sextiles, quintiles, etc.); this would introduce another factor. What would be the role of Mercury (and perhaps Venus) in "guiding" the peregrine Mars? I certainly see a role for the very tight quintile aspect between them given that Mars has no other important planetary contacts.

Peregrine has nothing to do with orbs or aspects of any kind. James Wilson was writing in the early nineteenth century and is language is misleading here. When he says a debility of 5 degrees he doesn't mean zodiacal degrees. What he is referring to is the old dignity 'ready reckoner' used by Astrologers as a rule of thumb (especially by students).

For essential dignities (i.e. dignity by sign placement) the scoring was:

Ruler = 5
Exaltation = 4
Triplicity = 3 (i.e. the planet is the triplicity ruler)
Terms or Bounds = 2
Face =1
Fall = -4
Detriment = -5
Peregrine = -5

The last three are essential debilities, as they all score negatively.

Now it's quite possible for a planet to be in say it's own Terms but also in Detriment, so it would end up with a score of -3. It is not possible for a planet to be in any one of the first 5 and also be Peregrine. That is the definition of Peregrine, there is no dignity by Ruler, Exaltation, Triplicity, Terms or Face. Some scoring systems would extend the definition to include Fall and Detriment but most scoring systems allow a planet to be both in Detriment and Peregrine, which is the case with your Moon and with your Saturn (assuming that you don't argue for Saturn having mutual receptions with Jupiter both by Terms and Face)

Now I don't think for a moment that Lilly or other practioners sat down and worked out dignity totals for both essential and accidental dignity. He knew the gradations and would balance them out from experience of coming across similar configurations. However I'm sure he would advise beginners and students to use it as a workable guide in lieu of experience. As they learned more they begin to know when to modify or even set it aside. Remember he wrote Christian Astrology as a text book for students. You'll find the tables of essential and accidental dignities in Book I after the sections on Houses, planets and signs.

Whether or not Mars gets support from another planet (usually some other person(s) who help in some way) really depends on how strong the other planet is. Mercury would be the obvious candidate as Sign, Exaltation and House ruler but Mercury is in no great shape itself as it too is Peregrine, it's retrograde and it's combust. Venus is a candidate as it's a natural benefic, and it's in a sextile by sign, it's also the second strongest planet by essential dignity in your chart. However Venus too is retrograde and combust so it might promise but whether it delivers is another matter. As Venus rules the 7th, help might be given by your wife (a stabilising influence?) or through other partnerships (not necessarily all at the same time).

 

[Barleywine]

23 Gemini and 7 Cancer would be antiscia. However, you have no planet at either extreme (though you do have the ninth House cusp).

I was simply referring to the fact that taking a 7-degree orb for the 0 Cancer Sun, it would still be in opposition to Jupiter along the 23 Sagittarius/23 Gemini axis (although across signs) as well as within a 7-degree orb of opposition to Jupiter's antiscion point of 7 Capricorn. Other than crossing signs, they don't seem that much different. But then I don't credit that Sun-Jupiter opposition myself, I was just wondering if this was a justifiable anomaly.

Whether or not Mars gets support from another planet (usually some other person(s) who help in some way) really depends on how strong the other planet is. Mercury would be the obvious candidate as Sign, Exaltation and House ruler but Mercury is in no great shape itself as it too is Peregrine, it's retrograde and it's combust. Venus is a candidate as it's a natural benefic, and it's in a sextile by sign, it's also the second strongest planet by essential dignity in your chart. However Venus too is retrograde and combust so it might promise but whether it delivers is another matter. As Venus rules the 7th, help might be given by your wife (a stabilising influence?) or through other partnerships (not necessarily all at the same time).

Since I'm approximately as old as you are, I'm about as "stabilized" as I'm going to get. So, many of these qualities are either nascent or may have been activated at some time in the past by transit or progression but are now dormant. Presently I have very few of the loose ends or dead ends that would seem to be indicated by some of the maladjusted or even debilitated planetary characteristics you describe. Maybe I've just overcome them, although the unfettered Mars had on rare occasions been the harbinger of some career disturbance over the last 30 years, until I retired and left all that behind.

 

[Minderwiz]

I was simply referring to the fact that taking a 7-degree orb for the 0 Cancer Sun, it would still be in opposition to Jupiter along the 23 Sagittarius/23 Gemini axis (although across signs) as well as within a 7-degree orb of opposition to Jupiter's antiscion point of 7 Capricorn. Other than crossing signs, they don't seem that much different. But then I don't credit that Sun-Jupiter opposition myself, I was just wondering if this was a justifiable anomaly.

Serves me right for trying to reply at midnight LOL. I missed your point entirely! I too would not count the Jupiter/Sun opposition because it's out of sign, even though it's within the Sun's orb. Indeed by sign it's a 'quincunx' or seeming inconjunct and a separating one too. Checking for antiscia and contra-antiscia shows that it qualifies for contra-antiscion by sign and is within the Sun's orb and more importantly is applying. So there is a link between Sun and Jupiter. It's not so much an anomaly but more a different way of 'beholding'.

Since I'm approximately as old as you are, I'm about as "stabilized" as I'm going to get. So, many of these qualities are either nascent or may have been activated at some time in the past by transit or progression but are now dormant. Presently I have very few of the loose ends or dead ends that would seem to be indicated by some of the maladjusted or even debilitated planetary characteristics you describe. Maybe I've just overcome them, although the unfettered Mars had on rare occasions been the harbinger of some career disturbance over the last 30 years, until I retired and left all that behind.

As I said before Peregrines are wanderers, travellers, strangers, foreigners or pilgrims and explorers their vulnerability or debility stems from having no 'home'. It's rather like the Starship Enterprise - they want to explore strange new worlds and civilisations..to boldly go where no man has gone before they take 'home' with them. This does not however make them necessarily weak in every situation they encounter, they can sometimes find themselves in strong positions. Though from the Star Trek Ark, Voyager might be a better analogy. - the Peregrine Starship.

Now in the case of the Enterprise or Voyager they are physically out there exploring and travelling but being Peregrine astrologically doesn't have to entail physical travelling, it can be travelling and exploring of a different kind. When I was a student many decades ago I studied Thomas Hobbes the Seventeenth Century English philosopher. Whilst I can't give you the quote verbatim, I remember an observation of his concerning exploring and measuring the heavens, which ran along the lines of we don't actually have to ascend into the heavens to do the measuring but we can do it 'sitting alone in our closet or in the dark', That is we can explore through our minds using reason and mathematics. You can be an explorer without moving from your own house all that is required is that you have no fixed anchor point from which you will not stray into 'foreign territory'. Your peregrine nature shows up, even at your (and my) age, through a desire to explore the strange new world of Traditional Astrology. You might, as with most peregrinations, need a good guide or helper to stop you getting lost on route (the danger of being a pilgrim) but the journey is important and in some ways the journey may be more important than the destination.

In your case you are actively still thinking of loosening ties (to modern Astrology) and your 'travels' may well lead to a change in your practise of Astrology. Your Peregrine Moon rules that ninth House, which amongst other things rules Astrology. Have you got a clear road map of your intended 'voyage' or are you (like me) likely to follow clues and interesting tidbits even if there's a risk of digression or ending up lost and having to backtrack?

The nature of the 'travel' and 'loose ends' can vary over your life, and they don't all have to manifest at the same time but don't assume that because you are 'older' that everything will be settled.

My ninth is also ruled by a peregrine planet, Mars in my case, and it has a Moveable (Cardinal) sign on the cusp i I'm still on my astrological journey and I'm still following interesting and hopefully useful leads. When I set out from the fixity and security of Modern Astrology, I thought it would be a year or two and I'd be back but with a much clearer understanding. Ten years later, I'm still exploring.

I have all my planets peregrine except the Moon, unless I count the two mutual receptions by Terms and Face between Jupiter and Saturn (like you) so if anything I'm more prone to 'travel' than you. However my ASC/DSC and MC/IC axes are in fixed signs, and all my planets except the Sun are in fixed signs, so change for me, is probably more difficult than for you

 

[Barleywine]

Serves me right for trying to reply at midnight LOL. I missed your point entirely! I too would not count the Jupiter/Sun opposition because it's out of sign, even though it's within the Sun's orb. Indeed by sign it's a 'quincunx' or seeming inconjunct and a separating one too. Checking for antiscia and contra-antiscia shows that it qualifies for contra-antiscion by sign and is within the Sun's orb and more importantly is applying. So there is a link between Sun and Jupiter. It's not so much an anomaly but more a different way of 'beholding'.

Yes, this is what I thought you were driving at, I just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something. I do believe it makes sense.

As I said before Peregrines are wanderers, travellers, strangers, foreigners or pilgrims and explorers their vulnerability or debility stems from having no 'home'. It's rather like the Starship Enterprise - they want to explore strange new worlds and civilisations..to boldly go where no man has gone before they take 'home' with them. This does not however make them necessarily weak in every situation they encounter, they can sometimes find themselves in strong positions. Though from the Star Trek Ark, Voyager might be a better analogy. - the Peregrine Starship.

Now in the case of the Enterprise or Voyager they are physically out there exploring and travelling but being Peregrine astrologically doesn't have to entail physical travelling, it can be travelling and exploring of a different kind. When I was a student many decades ago I studied Thomas Hobbes the Seventeenth Century English philosopher. Whilst I can't give you the quote verbatim, I remember an observation of his concerning exploring and measuring the heavens, which ran along the lines of we don't actually have to ascend into the heavens to do the measuring but we can do it 'sitting alone in our closet or in the dark', That is we can explore through our minds using reason and mathematics. You can be an explorer without moving from your own house all that is required is that you have no fixed anchor point from which you will not stray into 'foreign territory'. Your peregrine nature shows up, even at your (and my) age, through a desire to explore the strange new world of Traditional Astrology. You might, as with most peregrinations, need a good guide or helper to stop you getting lost on route (the danger of being a pilgrim) but the journey is important and in some ways the journey may be more important than the destination.

I've been thinking about the implications, and can thoroughly relate to this analogy, but almost entirely from an "inner voyage" perspective. You are unlikely to meet many more inwardly-turned people, which is what led me to the study of astrology in the first place. Although my career was corporate and largely people-centered (i.e. supervisory and regulatory interface), my most significant contributions within it were always emphatically individual, original and entrepreneurial (writing, thinking, planning, initiating, staffing, etc). In the mental realm I'm an experimenter, always looking for something "new under the sun" to satisfy my rather fierce appetite for deep metaphysical concepts to chew on. The Hermetic Qabalah (as in "Western Mystery Tradition") was - and still is - ideal for this, with its "wheels within wheels" and its intricate extensions via the tarot (as a self-actualization tool), gematria and ceremonial magic (although the latter I hold at arms length and examine more than I plunge into it). Now that I have the luxury of time, I'm pushing into uncharted territory (much of it archaic in origin) with geomancy, astro-geomancy, lithomancy and - potentially - traditional astrology. So yes, "travel" is entirely consistent if taken as an inner journey; outwardly I'm tenaciously home-centered and, after my early academic and military sojourns in New York City and Germany, I don't get about much (unless the internet counts )

In your case you are actively still thinking of loosening ties (to modern Astrology) and your 'travels' may well lead to a change in your practise of Astrology. Your Peregrine Moon rules that ninth House, which amongst other things rules Astrology. Have you got a clear road map of your intended 'voyage' or are you (like me) likely to follow clues and interesting tidbits even if there's a risk of digression or ending up lost and having to backtrack?

The nature of the 'travel' and 'loose ends' can vary over your life, and they don't all have to manifest at the same time but don't assume that because you are 'older' that everything will be settled.

My ninth is also ruled by a peregrine planet, Mars in my case, and it has a Moveable (Cardinal) sign on the cusp i I'm still on my astrological journey and I'm still following interesting and hopefully useful leads. When I set out from the fixity and security of Modern Astrology, I thought it would be a year or two and I'd be back but with a much clearer understanding. Ten years later, I'm still exploring.

No road map as such; as Alfred Korzybski once said "A map is not the territory it represents" anyway, so I would posit that on the fringes of my route I'm looking for blaze-marks on trees. The voyage itself is the important thing, and fruitful digression is sometimes as much the point as the ultimate goal. But, "in the outer" at least, much IS settled for the moment, unless the American economy goes completely bust (the American culture is already a lost cause, which is why I shun as much of it as I can) or my health takes a nasty turn that can't be staved off or undone by prudent diet and exercise.

I have all my planets peregrine except the Moon, unless I count the two mutual receptions by Terms and Face between Jupiter and Saturn (like you) so if anything I'm more prone to 'travel' than you. However my ASC/DSC and MC/IC axes are in fixed signs, and all my planets except the Sun are in fixed signs, so change for me, is probably more difficult than for you

Interesting parallels. Do you often feel categorically disconnected or rootless, as seems to be to broad theme here? On the inner plane, as I experience it at least, it could be taken as a virtue up to a point; to quote Tom Petty, it's "into the great wide-open" we go. In less "evolved" types (now there's a smug New Age paradigm) and in keeping with the "fatalistic" thrust many "New Age-y" astrologers perceive (or perhaps imagine) in traditional astrology, is homelessness ever strongly indicated by peregrination, or is it more like the metaphorical "Fool's Journey" as depicted in the Tarot?

With my penchant for detail, I must delve deeper into "face" and "term" as a general practice.

Great stuff. Keep it up!

 

[Minderwiz]

No road map as such; as Alfred Korzybski once said "A map is not the territory it represents" anyway, so I would posit that on the fringes of my route I'm looking for blaze-marks on trees. The voyage itself is the important thing, and fruitful digression is sometimes as much the point as the ultimate goal. But, "in the outer" at least, much IS settled for the moment, unless the American economy goes completely bust (the American culture is already a lost cause, which is why I shun as much of it as I can) or my health takes a nasty turn that can't be staved off or undone by prudent diet and exercise.

I mentioned the road map really as a check on peregrination. It actually can take a lot of courage to go on a journey where the end point is not fixed, so I would stress that you shouldn't take 'the 'debility' of a Peregrine planet as being truly debilitating. It can be more an inconvenience or loss of direction at worst but at best it can be a major learning exercise

Interesting parallels. Do you often feel categorically disconnected or rootless, as seems to be to broad theme here? On the inner plane, as I experience it at least, it could be taken as a virtue up to a point; to quote Tom Petty, it's "into the great wide-open" we go. In less "evolved" types (now there's a smug New Age paradigm) and in keeping with the "fatalistic" thrust many "New Age-y" astrologers perceive (or perhaps imagine) in traditional astrology, is homelessness ever strongly indicated by peregrination, or is it more like the metaphorical "Fool's Journey" as depicted in the Tarot?

With my penchant for detail, I must delve deeper into "face" and "term" as a general practice.

Great stuff. Keep it up!

I don't feel disconnected or rootless but in an external sense I am. I can't trace my father's family back beyond two generations as there seems to be an adoption involved by possibly a cousin. On my mother's side during her life I never got back beyond her parents, who split up. Since her death I've managed to trace back to the early nineteenth century through her mother's side. One difference between traditional and modern Astrology is that the tradition deals with the external world and other people, not just feelings nor does in necessarily project other people onto our own feelings. I had a very loving family including a sister and brother so I never felt a 'void' and still don't but I am curious and my curiousity was stimluated through my maternal grandmother who died ten years before I was born but with whom I feel a spiritual connection - and Mars rules both my fourth and ninth houses, so I have a clear astrological connection between family and spirituality.

 

[Barleywine]

I've been plugging along, reading Tetrabiblos and practicing some of the traditional astrology techniques of Lilly. I worked with the "planetary strength" calculator, adding and subtracting according to dignity and debility. I think I'm getting it but have a few minor questions. I'm assuming that Sun and Moon can be peregrine the same as any planet with no essential dignity. And it appears, since Venus is in its own Face, that it has an essential dignity and therefore isn't peregrine. Venus and Mercury both take big hits from being retrograde, combust and in the 8th house, and Mercury is also peregrine. Mars gets a good "bump" because its in the midheaven, is direct, isn't combust and is in Jupiter's term. Jupiter does too since is in its own House (Sagittarius), isn't combust and is moving a bit faster than the mean (even if it is retrograde, does that still apply?). Saturn is a mixed bag - it's direct, isn't combust, is dignified in the 9th house is moving a bit faster than the mean and is in the Term of Venus, but is in its Detriment and is peregrine (if I'm reading that right). I've also been noodling over the whole oriental/occidental thing. Looks like all my traditional planets are "occidental to the Sun" and decreasing in light; the Moon I wasn't sure of but since it moves faster than the Sun and is closing in on its last quarter (decreasing in light) and moving toward the New Moon, that seems right.

I just downloaded the free Morinus astrology program, which has what seems like a very complete "traditional" module. I also had to download the four ephemeris modules and the Python program, but it all works together beautifully. I'm trying to figure out the Almuten, and the prorogator/hyleg/apheta stuff. I'm able to add Term and Face rings to the graphic chart so I can see them and get rid of Ptolemy's table, and that is a plus. An even bigger one is that you can change house systems on the fly on the graphic wheel without having to run a recalculate, and there seem to be 8 or 9 different systems. I think I'm going to like it a lot!

 

[Minderwiz]

I've been plugging along, reading Tetrabiblos and practicing some of the traditional astrology techniques of Lilly. I worked with the "planetary strength" calculator, adding and subtracting according to dignity and debility. I think I'm getting it but have a few minor questions. I'm assuming that Sun and Moon can be peregrine the same as any planet with no essential dignity. And it appears, since Venus is in its own Face, that it has an essential dignity and therefore isn't peregrine.

Yes Sun and Moon can both be Peregrine and are peregrine more than the others - because they only have one sign of rulership each.

Venus in her own Face is not Peregrine, as you rightly surmise any of it's essential dignities is enough to ensure it is not Peregrine.

Venus and Mercury both take big hits from being retrograde, combust and in the 8th house, and Mercury is also peregrine. Mars gets a good "bump" because its in the midheaven, is direct, isn't combust and is in Jupiter's term. Jupiter does too since is in its own House (Sagittarius), isn't combust and is moving a bit faster than the mean (even if it is retrograde, does that still apply?). Saturn is a mixed bag - it's direct, isn't combust, is dignified in the 9th house is moving a bit faster than the mean and is in the Term of Venus, but is in its Detriment and is peregrine (if I'm reading that right).

A planet moving fast but retrograde still gets its weighting for being fast (at least I haven't seen any thing to say it doesn't).

The issue of being Peregrine is also affected by mutual receptions. Software is not very good at detecting and allowing for this. In traditional Astrology in principle, a planet in any dignity of another planet, with that same planet in any dignity of the first planet is in a mutual reception and mutual receptions remove the condition of being Peregrine.

Taking your chart as an example

The Sun is in the exaltation of Jupiter (Cancer) and Jupiter in Sagittarius a Fire sign, and the Day triplicity ruler of Fire is the Sun. So that gives a mutual reception and we should not treat the Sun as being Peregrine.

The problem with software is that whilst it can identify the mutual reception it seems only to be able to take it into account if the mutual reception is through only the same dignity, so this doesn't show up on the software scoring.

Again using your chart, Saturn is in the Terms (and Face) of Jupiter and Jupiter is in the Terms (and Face) of Saturn. So Saturn has a mutual reception and is not Peregrine.

However it's not clear to what extent traditional astrologers put weight on mutual receptions by minor dignities (Terms and Face) by Lilly's time. Certainly Morin did not put any weight on the minor dignities at all. So at best these type of mutual receptions might just cancel out being Peregrine but add no real dignity. I think it's a matter of testing to see if you end up giving too much weight or too little to essential dignities using mutual receptions by Terms and Face.

There's one further point on mutual receptions. If the two planets are essentially debilitated does this suddenly transform them into being essentially strong - for example I have Sun in Libra, the exaltation of Saturn and Saturn in Leo the rulership of the Sun. But Sun in Libra is in Fall (-4) and Saturn in Leo is in Detriment (-5) So how do I score the mutual reception. Do I treat both planets as now essentially strong or does it simply show two weak planets trying to do their best for each other? I don't think I can count the two as now very strong but I don't count them as being in Detriment and Fall. Perhaps treating them as having 0 essential dignity might be the best approach and then add on their accidental dignities for an overall score. But I have seen writers suddenly bumping up the dignities to being very strong and treating Saturn as though it were in exaltation and the Sun as though it were in Rulership

It comes down to testing again. Remember the scoring is a rule of thumb or a quick impression it's not meant to be absolute.

I've also been noodling over the whole oriental/occidental thing. Looks like all my traditional planets are "occidental to the Sun" and decreasing in light; the Moon I wasn't sure of but since it moves faster than the Sun and is closing in on its last quarter (decreasing in light) and moving toward the New Moon, that seems right.

Mercury and Venus are occidental and that adds strength for them

Mars, Jupiter and Saturn are also occidental but in their case that reduces their strength - the Sun will eventually catch them and they will go into combustion. Whilst oriental, the Sun is heading away from them and so they are increasingly free of combustion.

The Moon is oriental, having passed it's opposition to the Sun (but only by a few degrees). The reason why the situation for the Moon is the opposite of the three superior planets is because the Moon is faster than the Sun but they are slower. So when the Moon is past the New Moon, stage it is further on in the zodiac than the Sun and moving away from it. When the three superiors are ahead of the Sun in the zodiac it's moving towards them.

I just downloaded the free Morinus astrology program, which has what seems like a very complete "traditional" module. I also had to download the four ephemeris modules and the Python program, but it all works together beautifully. I'm trying to figure out the Almuten, and the prorogator/hyleg/apheta stuff. I'm able to add Term and Face rings to the graphic chart so I can see them and get rid of Ptolemy's table, and that is a plus. An even bigger one is that you can change house systems on the fly on the graphic wheel without having to run a recalculate, and there seem to be 8 or 9 different systems. I think I'm going to like it a lot!

For a freebie, Morinus is outstanding. I use it quite a bit, even though I have Solar Fire on my computer. You can also add and edit Arabic Parts. When you get to Primary Directions it becomes invaluable.