What deck is the original deck of Tarot de Marseilles ?

sunstallion

I would like to know what deck is the original deck of Tarot de Marseilles ? There are too many versions. What version is really the one ? I cant find this answer anywhere in this forum.

Greatly appreciate for a respond.

Thanks
 

jmd

Ah! what a great and frustrating question...

...if you have not yet, have a look at le_pendu's article in the latest issue of the Association for Tarot Studies's Newsletter: Hunting the "true" Marseille Tarot

The question is difficult from a number of perspectives.

For example, is the Noblet a 'true' Marseille-type deck? then that is one of the earliest extant decks. But is not the Cary Sheet also of the same type - then again here is an earlier example... IF considered a 'Marseille'-type.

It seems that the two early patterns that settled into what has come to be called the Marseille are the ones by Payen and Dodal (perhaps the same woodcarvers in any case) from the early 1700s, or possibly going back to mid-late 1600s; and the one exemplified by Conver in the 1760s.
 

euripides

now I'm impressed. That is a pithy, useful answer to an insanely huge question.

Are there decks that might LOOK superficially to be Marseilles, but which differ too greatly in one direction or another, to be rightly called so?

What about the Italian decks, such as the Liguria-Piedmont and Bologna? To the uninformed eye the seem so similar!

I'd be interested to see these decks laid out in some sort of chart or database...
 

jmd

I think you have hit upon part of the problem: a variety of decks not only show gradual variations, but also become problematic in terms of classification.

In part it also depends on what is, for us, going to be accepted as a Tarot de Marseille. As an obvious example, its design or production in Marseille is not a requirement - rather it is a type or, perhaps more precisely, a pattern.

Depending on how much we are going to precisely define its characteristics, we are either going to cast too narrow, or too broad, a net. I would suggest that some amongst us may perhaps want to even cast different nets for different periods of time: a broader one prior to 1760, and a finer or narrower one post-1760.

For example, the Schaffhouse has, for me, certain characteristics that make it different from a standard Marseille-pattern: for one, XII has both feet tied. Yet I would view a very early deck depicting such but that has in nearly all other respects similar representation to the Marseille something that I would more likely refer to as 'Marseille' than 'Schaffhouse' - in part because of time.

On the whole, however, I think it is usually easier to use a concept introduced by Saul Kripke in Naming and Necessity - that of a RIGID DESIGNATOR. In some ways, this is a simple concept that has important ramifications: I can point to something and say "THIS is what [given in our case our topic] is a Marseille-type deck".

And for this I would point to two early decks, and one recent one, as three different decks to which we all would (I hope) be in agreement as to their appelation as 'Marseille-type':
the Jean Payen, Jean-Pierre Payen and Jean Dodal decks (very very similar);
the Chosson and Conver decks (again, very very similar); and
the Marteau-Grimaud deck (based on the Conver in any case).​
This does not mean that there are no other Marseille decks, but rather that variations will need to be considered and, if sufficiently distinctive and forming their own GROUP of decks, perhaps another appelation given (as for the Besançon and Schaffhouse, for example).

Pointing to the Dodal and Conver of course then leads us backwards in time to consider what models they may have used, and how or why there may have been variations: here considerations of decks such as the Vieville, the Parisian anonymous deck, the 'Charles VI', the Cary Sheet, the card remnants found in the well of one of the Visconti castles, all have a bearing on reflections and considerations.

How much deviation is, notheless, going to be 'allowed' for a deck to still be called a 'Marseille'?

Personally, I would suggest that it depends on the variation(s), and the likely reasons for the differences.

For example, if someone copied the Grimaud but instead of the Grimaud swords used the Bolognese form (from which the Noblet and Payen, and therefore Dodal, Conver and Marteau are likely to have derived) - see the thread 10 Swords - Contrasting the Dodal and Conver - I would personally still be entirely content in calling it a Marseille.

In fact, I would personally claim it as a Marseille that has its swords historically properly depicted... even if others would see in this no more than a blending of the Marseille and the Bologna decks.

And this of course is simply an example as to what makes categorisation also difficult. Not just the deviations from the pointed-to deck (Dodal and Conver - or TdMI and TdMII), but what is going to be considered as intrinsically characteristic of the pattern: do the swords need to be depicted without hilts when curved? Would another name to 'Marseille' be better used in that case?

Here we may differ... and in our difference also point to not only what we value, but the manner in which we prefer various degrees of precision in our employed terms.
 

sunstallion

Of all the Marseilles decks out there, there has to be one original that all these decks came from. That is what I am looking for.
 

le pendu

Hee hee.

Welcome to the club.

It doesn't exist. All we have are later copies with many variations.

The oldest TdM deck we have is the Jean Noblet, 1650, it remains unpublished although there is talk of it being published in the future (fingers crossed). There is a redrawing/coloring of the 22 trumps by Jean-Claude Flornoy which I highly recommend.
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/noblet-marseilles/

The oldest published is the Jean Dodal, c. 1701-1713 published by Dusserre. It is out of print and extremely difficult to find.
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/dussere-dodal/

There is also another Jean-Claude Flornoy redrawing/coloring of the 22 trumps of the Jean Dodal.
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/flornoy-marseilles/

There is the Claude Burdel, 1751, published by Lo Scarabeo. Although it is not a photoreproduction.
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/burdel-marseilles/

And the Nicolas Conver, 1760, published by Heron.
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/heron-marseilles/
 

euripides

sunstallion said:
Of all the Marseilles decks out there, there has to be one original that all these decks came from. That is what I am looking for.

Yes and no. There is an 'oldest' known deck, but the later Marseilles didn't necessarily come from it. Try re-reading JMD's post carefully.

If you simply want the 'oldest Marseilles' then the Dussere Dodal, as le Pendu mentioned, is probably the one to track down, or if you can't get that, the Heron Conver. (I think... unless I've gotten muddled....)

But they aren't the 'original' TdM. Its a bit like other ancient manuscripts - copies of copies, the originals long since lost. Sometimes a story gets re-told using bits of various stories, from which people try to figure out what the originals were about.

Any of those reproduction decks (you can tell because they look old - faded colours, sometimes rough lines from the woodcuts) - would pretty much be as 'original' as any other, its just the modern re-interpretations you want to steer clear of.
 

Fulgour

# 9 with a Bullet

sunstallion said:
I would like to know what deck is the original deck of Tarot de Marseilles ? There are too many versions. What version is really the one ? I cant find this answer anywhere in this forum.
The nearest best to a clean original is the Convos by AGMuller.
If TdM were an albumn~ this track would be a popular request.
 

euripides

the Convos rather than the Heron Conver?
 

Fulgour

Visually~ it's pure lucidity

euripides said:
the Convos rather than the Heron Conver?
It's more like where to set your feet to begin with.
For very little investment, and a good design deck,
leaving the many historical photo-reproductions to
be sorted out, Convos is Clean & Clear all the way.