XI. Lust - Woman on a lion

[Karrma]

Frieda Harris, at the exhibition, told a young boy who asked her about this card something like "imagine wanting a chocolate very badly. Now imagine the feeling you get when you finally get the chocolate. That feeling is what this card is about."

Traditional Strength cards seem to speak of a certain serenity, of finding quiet strength in the face of odd. Not so Lust. Lust is about the ecstasy of that same internal power, being drunk on it, consumed by it. The final realization of what you True Will is, the happiness and sexual drunkenness that go with absolute certainty.

I'm not well versed on the subject, but Aeon once told me that K&C is achieved at the intersection where Lust meets the Priestess, which certainly makes sense. The woman is a harlot, but in a very sublime and holy sense, accepting all, denying none. As Babalon, she holds all existence in her womb, and every man and woman exist inside her, and she is in a constant state of wanton abandon, as every action of True Will is in fact an action of making love to her. "Existence is pure joy."

A very exciting card, one that, when meditated upon, does not evoke in me either serenity or peace but... well, I suppose I'll just say "excitement," and leave it at that.

It's hard to know where to begin. It might help if I point out that the 7 heads of the Beast relate to the 7 chakras. That gives you a direct link back to sexual energy. The reigns held by the woman are big clue too. Look where the loop is. This energy can be expressed and grounded through sex. (There's nothing wrong with that. ) Then again this 'desire force' can also be directed into spiritual growth. It all depends on where you want to go and what you want to do. It's not a moral issue though.

Although I can understand your point of view when I look at the card, your explaination goes against everything I have read about it, the card is called lust instead of strenght because; "the path (on the qabalistic tree of life) corresponding to the card is not the Strength of Geburah but the influence from Chesed (mercy) upon Geburah", this quote comes from the book of Thoth.

The woman on the beast is Babalon, the scarlet woman, to my understanding she is a depiction of the great mother (Binah, which is connected to Geburah) and the 'lion' is a depiction of the father (Chochmah which is connected to Chesed) (mind that Chesed and Geburah are both on the physical plane, they seem to be physical reflections a Chochmah and Binah in a sense, although on the other hand they are te opposite).
"It represents the act of the original marriage as it occurs in nature", another quote from the book of Thoth.
So to me this card represents the power that lies within the wonder of creation, the energy that is channeled trough the active male power and which takes shape within the passive female force, so to speak, the bliss that connects these forces in the 'deeds of the flesh' bring forth great power.

Offcourse there is much more to say about this card, and maybe not all that I write is right, but for now this is my main impression.

When I read your post, a poem by Crowley that I recently read came to my mind:

"The world for a whore!
The sky for a harlot!
All life - at your door -
For a Woman of Scarlet!
A bitter exchange?
A bad bargain to strike! It
May seem to you strange-
The fact is - I like it!

You offer me gold,
Place, power, and pleasure
To have and to hold-
Inexhaustible treasure!
I'll give it and more
In this planet of boredom
For a girl that's a whore
And is proud of her whoredom."

This does not seem to be a poem written by someone who would depicture a man as a willess victim of lust, it seems more like it's a (sacred?) game is which men an woman engage willingly on the material plane to enjoy a feeling of bliss and at the same time give shape to energy.

EDIT: I was thinking about what I just wrote about passive female energy and male active energy and realized that on the material plane, the sefirot which are passive on the astral plane, are active, Geburah is a very active Sefira (Mars is the planet which is attributed to Geburah) and Chesed is of a more passive nature, I think, that could explain why the beast in the Lust card has sort of a submissive look to it in a way.

I would like to get this thread back on topic. As a female, a Leo, and a newbie, I have lots of questions.

The word Lust has so many connotations, almost as many as Love.

This card makes sense to me, if the egos get out of the way. A healthy Lust, to me is pure passion united with pure earthiness, it is for its own sake. (a lusty laugh, a lusty enjoyment of life.) Once you get the self emotions (Cups) involved, there can be obsession, neediness, clinging, which is lusting, as an emotion, wanting something you cannot have or cannot be possessed. Or lust as an idea only (Swords) which when you are trying to create or manipulate Lust, using it as a tool for other ends. (such as the idea of the female controlling the male)

And in most typical cultures, the act of reproduction is one of the few times that the feminine is seen to be as strong or stronger than the masculine. For those that are uncomfortable with weakness, that will be threatening.

But it does need to be internal, at least for me, as I am by nature (and HGA) a virtuous woman, so I cannot go against my HGA to fit someone else's view.

There are several reasons this card fits better between the wheel of life and the hanged man, rather than between chariot and the hermit.

 

[yogiman]

This card makes sense to me, if the egos get out of the way. A healthy Lust, to me is pure passion united with pure earthiness, it is for its own sake. (a lusty laugh, a lusty enjoyment of life.)

Still feeling unsatisfied by the responses, I can't help being the devil's advocate.

Continuing on my last post at the Love thread, are you sure that you are not ascribing loftier ideas to Crowley than is in fact the case? Why is there so much emphasis on the physical aspect, whereas the subtle emotional one is done away with.

 

[ravenest]

If you want to be " Continuing on my last post at the Love thread" why are you doing that here and not in that thread?

IMO Karrma is looking at the 'above base emotion' aspects ... maybe even the spiritual aspects? Why should she concentrate on the lower base emotions of " obsession, neediness, clinging, which is lusting, as an emotion, wanting something you cannot have or cannot be possessed."

or the intellectual; "when you are trying to create or manipulate Lust, using it as a tool for other ends. (such as the idea of the female controlling the male)"

Is there an issue that her aspects are from the perspective of a woman who is a Leo, active, intelligent and logical?

You cant expect her to look at it from YOUR emotional aspects - whatever they are.

The emotional aspect is not being 'done away with' , in its baser forms it is seen as detrimental to comprehending and experiencing a different type of love than can be expressed with the idea of Lust.

The idea is not to 'do away with it' or sweep it under the carpet but to transform it. More internal alchemy is required. (Check your Art card .)

 

[Zephyros]

This card makes sense to me, if the egos get out of the way. A healthy Lust, to me is pure passion united with pure earthiness, it is for its own sake. (a lusty laugh, a lusty enjoyment of life.) Once you get the self emotions (Cups) involved, there can be obsession, neediness, clinging, which is lusting, as an emotion, wanting something you cannot have or cannot be possessed. Or lust as an idea only (Swords) which when you are trying to create or manipulate Lust, using it as a tool for other ends. (such as the idea of the female controlling the male)

To a great extent, loss of ego is what it is all about. The abode of the HGA is (to my understanding) where there is complete transparency of the ego of desire to do one's will. In normal consciousness one's will is seen through the filter of desire; not what is but what we wish it to be. Actual K&C takes place at the intersection of the Priestess and Lust. Lust is, in other words, the absolute knowledge of the ecstasy one feels when in complete alignment with the Will.

And in most typical cultures, the act of reproduction is one of the few times that the feminine is seen to be as strong or stronger than the masculine. For those that are uncomfortable with weakness, that will be threatening.

Although I can't really argue, I don't know if that is what Lust is exactly getting at. The image of the Scarlet Woman straddling the Beast seems quite equal to me. The woman does not seem to be controlling the beast, but enjoying it, her the space and he the experience. This goes to the abandon with which one does their Will, every act is complete and absolute, since you are doing your Will. It is in this equal partnership that creation is manifested.

But it does need to be internal, at least for me, as I am by nature (and HGA) a virtuous woman, so I cannot go against my HGA to fit someone else's view.

Well, that depends on what you mean by virtue. That Lust is portrayed through sexual imagery does not mean it is all about sex, nor even that it is that simplistic. The card displays what one would spiritually feel at K&C, and that isn't simply having a polite conversation with an angel. The word "knowledge" is used to imply intimacy (as Adam "knew" Eve) and the most intimate, joining act people can imagine is, indeed, sex. There is two-way flow here, too, as the HGA is fulfilled by "knowing" its charge.

 

[Aeon418]

The card displays what one would spiritually feel at K&C, and that isn't simply having a polite conversation with an angel.

Having converse, in the archaic sense of the word, is definitely not a chat.

 

[Zephyros]

Having converse, in the archaic sense of the word, is definitely not a chat.

And that goes to the reciprocity thing. What does the HGA get out of it? Consummation with the Princess? What urges the HGA to be "on our side," so to speak?

 

[Grigori]

Moderator Note

Hi folks

We seem to be fairly regularly off topic at the moment. For conversations about spiritual study a generic thread in the Spirituality Forum may be appropriate venue. For conversations about Thelemic or Golden Dawn Study that would be suitable to these forums here. This particular thread is about the trump XI-Lust, please ensure posts stay on the topic of the thread and if a new topic arises, start a new thread in a suitable location.

I'll be removing posts from this thread which are off topic.

Many thanks!
Grigori

 

[ravenest]

I like to see Lust (as one of the ideas or meanings in the Lust card) as relating to enthusiasm.

Particulalry the type Crowley talks about in 'Energised Enthusiasm' ; “For example, I wrote “Tannhauser,” complete from conception to execution, in sixty-seven consecutive hours. I was unconscious of the fall of nights and days, even after stopping; nor was there any reaction of fatigue.”

When I have been in this state (and I have written about it elsewhere here) one is ‘enflamed’. One must ‘see the project through’ day and night are a background observation of the Sun passing across the sky, night an annoyance that insists on drawing one away from the work to attend to lighting. Food is not needed, actually it brings one ‘down’. The execution and grounding of the creative current is all that matters.

To me this comes about not just from ‘fire’ passing through one but it is the Joy … Love and Lust of executing, not just creativity (perhaps a ‘divine quality’) but a particular thing or expression that one has an affinity with, an attraction to, even a healthy fascination with, one’s natural ability and perhaps all indications of where the expression of the True Will lies?

I guess I am saying that one is more likely to be in the space of Lust when one is executing a creative expression of their True Will.

My ideal is to approach the whole of life in that spirit ; to have ‘Lust for Life’ and energised enthusiasm , just for the fact of being alive and experiencing Lust about that .

I also think we have to look at it (like all Thelemic concepts) with a broad eclectic view … the way Crowley wanted the Thoth deck concepts portrayed … this post is a good example of that;

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=205453&page=5 post # 44 ~ link.

 

[Aeon418]

What urges the HGA to be "on our side," so to speak?

The 'urge' is the will to manifest on all planes concurrently. Your body and mind are the vehicles needed for the angel to fully inhabit Yetzirah and Assiah.

Imagine how incomplete Atu XI would be without the lion. Or Atu VII without the actual chariot.

 

[Aeon418]

I guess I am saying that one is more likely to be in the space of Lust when one is executing a creative expression of their True Will.

My ideal is to approach the whole of life in that spirit ; to have ‘Lust for Life’ and energised enthusiasm , just for the fact of being alive and experiencing Lust about that .

Well said!

I think one of the problems with the name of Atu XI is that many people bring their baggage surrounding the word, lust, with them. Instead of enthusiasm, vitality, and aliveness, they are thinking more along the lines of the Vice of Netzach - lust.

It makes me think of a Crowley quip aimed at A.E.Waite.

Ah! Mr. Waite, the world of Magic is a mirror, wherein who sees muck is muck.

What a clever move to illustrate this trump with the 'bad guys' from Revelation.