rider waite deck--so negative

[Lilliana]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone else finds the rider waite deck a tad negative?

I 've been using it for several years now, and alot of the images seem to suggest general negativity. Maybe it's just the books I'm getting the interpretations from?

It's not that I want a deck that's all sunshine and roses, but alot of the images are quite sinister when you really look at them. I really like the symbollism, but I think in a few cases it could have been executed in a different way, so you don't just look at a card and automatically think "oh jeeze"

I'm seriously thinking about retiring my rider deck and getting something more upbeat.

any opinions, thoughts?

thanks,
Lilliana

 

[northsea]

What amazes me is how much influence Rider-Waite still exerts on tarot meanings after nearly a century. I find an anti-intellect bent in the Swords suit. Only four out of ten have clearly positive readings (upright or reversed). You're basically led to believe that thinking causes depression and ruin. Clear thinking can do just the opposite. It seems like Waite payed too much attention to the traditional medieval symbol swords, and not enough to astrological and elemental (air) aspects.

 

[jmd]

It appears that Waite (or Coleman-Smith, who painted them) was very influenced not so much by the medieval symbolism of swords (which could also represent uprightness and royalty), but by Papus's book (Tarot of the Bohemians) in which he interprets this suit, following Gypsy connections he appears to have had, in quite a negative tone.

The associations of swords with thinking and air wasn't clearly established at the time, and even in Waite's esoteric order wands were used for the element of air (as they were in the Golden Dawn).

I would suggest... and this is a forum after all, so please correct me if you deem what I say to be incorrect, that Waite's 'negative' depictions of swords (1) IS negative, (2) is based on Papus, and (3) is not necessarily associated with thinking, the mind nor Air.

 

[jmd]

PS

This applies to one suit... I do not find the whole deck negative, but rather quite inspiring, even if I do not agree with his reversal of VIII and XI (following Golden Dawn), his depiction of XIII Death (because of the description of the Horse of Death in the Apocalypse), or his depiction of XVIIII the Sun (following a Flemish deck), adding the numeral zero to the otherwise unnumbered Fool, or adding pictorial representations on the pips.

 

[Jewel]

Personally I never connected with the deck. I had purchased it as my first deck but soon replaced it with the Robin Wood which I really really like. The Robin Wood has pagan themes, but is Rider-Wait based, so if pagan concepts do not bother you I highly recommend this deck.

The one thing I would recommend to you though is to not get hung up on how your books interpret the cards, however. The Tarot is mnemonic, meaning that it the symbols will speak to you. If you do like the symbolism of the deck, but not the interpretations other books give them I would highly recommend Mary Greer's Tarot workbooks (Tarot for Yourself, and Tarot Constellations) which will both help you explore what those cards mean personally to you vs. what is written in another book. In Tarot constellations she actually goes into the debate of the position of the Strength and Justice as 8 and 11 so that we can explore and understand the debate and make our own choice as to which position we feel is the most appropriate.

Best of luck, and may your Tarot journey be an enjoyable one always.

 

[tarotbear]

I teach with the Rider, but read with the Robin Wood.
The problem I encounter is that the foppish, clownlike Medieval costumes on the characters don't connect with the modern world and that tends to put people off. My personal peeve is that no one in the deck looks happy! The couple on the Two of Cups is supposed to be getting married, and I figure they are supposed to look solemn, but they look so sour! LOL!! Aren't they happy to be getting married?
Negativity is not such a bad thing- but learning to cope and deal with the negative things in your life is what Tarot is all about...isn't it?

 

[Lilliana]

Thanks for your opinions.

Lately I've been ignoring the traditional rider meanings and trying to work out my own.
I have to agree about all the people looking not very happy. Even on the good cards.

Jewel-- The books you mentioned sound interesting, I'll have to check them out.

Tommy-- The suit of swords in rider has bothered me too. I could never work out why they were so negative. Jmd, what you pointed out was interesting.

Lilliana

 

[Jewel]

Lilliana, I am currently working with the work books I recommended to you and absolutly love them! I like the fact that they are "workbooks" vs. only reading. I am using the Robin Wood Tarot to do the work in these books.

Another book that I am working with while using the workbooks is Seventy-Eight Degrees of Wisdom by Rachel Pollock. She uses the Raider-Waite and really goes into each card and the symbolism, and other aspects. You might be interested in it as well. I use the Universal Raider-Waite so I can look at the cards as she talks about them and study the symbols and elements in them.

Again, good luck!

 

[Kaz]

Quote:Jewel (14 Nov, 2001 00:02):
Personally I never connected with the deck. I had purchased it as my first deck but soon replaced it with the Robin Wood which I really really like. The Robin Wood has pagan themes, but is Rider-Wait based, so if pagan concepts do not bother you I highly recommend this deck.


I agree with you Jewel, RW was my first and only deck until a week ago. RW does not talk to me, and I bought Osho Zen, I love that deck. I still use RW as study deck, cos lots of ppl refer to it and Osho Zen is quite different.
And, my b-day is almost there and I will get the Robin Wood deck as a present from my mum and dad. I hope to replace the RW deck with Robin Wood then.

Kaz

 

[Jewel]

Quote:Kaz (15 Nov, 2001 03:11):
I agree with you Jewel, RW was my first and only deck until a week ago. RW does not talk to me, and I bought Osho Zen, I love that deck. I still use RW as study deck, cos lots of ppl refer to it and Osho Zen is quite different.
And, my b-day is almost there and I will get the Robin Wood deck as a present from my mum and dad. I hope to replace the RW deck with Robin Wood then.

Kaz

Congratulations Kaz!!! Happy b-day. I look forward to hearing how you like the Robin Wood once you get it One of these days I am going to have to break down and get the Osho Zen, I have yet to run accross a person who has it and does not love it.