tempted to interpret another readers spread

[Pam O]

The response has been great! Lot's of good information and personal opinions tihat I was looking for.

......the cards are assigned meanings before any of us were born.

This is a lively thread, I'm still reading through

Hey AriesVirgoAscending!!

Just a quick note.
The card meanings are not stuck at an "assigned meaning" from long ago.
They are constantly evolving!

Glad to have you post a great thread that generated lots of postings!

 

[AriesVirgoAscending]

Hey AriesVirgoAscending!!

Just a quick note.
The card meanings are not stuck at an "assigned meaning" from long ago.
They are constantly evolving!



Glad to have you post a great thread that generated lots of postings!

I disagree, they have traditional meanings that must be considered in interpretation in relation to the question being asked, after that it's imagery and intuition.

I don't know what you mean by evolving.
Evolving in that we see how they relate to certain situations, but at the core, the meaning is the meaning.
For example: Death, it's about transformation.
Relate that to the question.

So I don't know what you mean.

I do enjoy the feedback, I'm learning so much

 

[Citrin]

AriesVirgoAscending, just two things I'm wondering about... I absolutely respect your view of tarot cards having "old assigned meanings". I don't really believe that (or maybe just a little? haha but I'm trying to read in a different style), but if you do it's all good. I'm just thinking: how do you feel about some new decks where the image really doesn't relate to the "old traditional meanings"? I'm thinking of the Ludy Lescot Tarot, Wild Unknown, Nicoletta Ceccoli, and so on... How would you use a deck like that? I'm just curious. Personally I felt like my intuition went "BOOM!" and really developed when I got the Ludy Lescot, because I simply was forced to leave all my old "traditional keywords" behind. It was amazing.

Second: have you tried the exchange here on AT?! It's such a great way of giving and receiving readings with people who are open to getting the questions "How do you interpret that card as this? " and discussing that. It is a place for learning and you can really find a variety of HOW people read tarot cards there.

 

[gregory]

I disagree, they have traditional meanings that must be considered in interpretation in relation to the question being asked, after that it's imagery and intuition.

I don't know what you mean by evolving.
Evolving in that we see how they relate to certain situations, but at the core, the meaning is the meaning.
For example: Death, it's about transformation.
Relate that to the question.

So I don't know what you mean.

Many here are violently against the idea of death "meaning" transformation and say it is either DEATH (as in buried, coffin, worms, heaven/hell) or a TOTAL ending - for just one example.

Even the "core traditional meanings" you subscribe to are not agreed to by all. If they were - no-one would need another reader - we could just use a book with those meanings listed like a dictionary.

 

[Pam O]

Many here are violently against the idea of death "meaning" transformation and say it is either DEATH (as in buried, coffin, worms, heaven/hell) or a TOTAL ending - for just one example.

Even the "core traditional meanings" you subscribe to are not agreed to by all. If they were - no-one would need another reader - we could just use a book with those meanings listed like a dictionary.

Like gregory said, if "Death" just meant "transformation", we would not need a real person to read the cards.

I bet there are whole threads here at AT exploring potential interpretations of "Death".

I wonder when or WHO assigned the meaning of "the wish card" to the...... 9 of cups. Is this a "core traditional meaning"?? Then the Rx is "you don't get your wish"??? THAT canned meaning is so far off so very often. I wonder just when is the first time this meaning was used? ...and how did it get so stuck with no regards to the IX Hermit card? It is not in Waite's "Pictorial Key".

Have you used a computer app? They pop out meanings, but the meanings that pop out may mean simply nothing! I do use computer apps when convenient, but I "read" the cards, I don't just look at canned meanings that particular author chose to assign each card. Now I do enjoy reading various Tarot books. (I have as many books as decks...) Sometimes authors are creative and mind-expanding, other times they are narrow and limited...

So who made up the "core traditional meanings" anyway?

We don't know who made the 1st Tarot deck.

In the old days, the church was scared of this tool that they did not understand, so they deemed it illegal, right?!
I read that a raging disease was the turning point where high ranking church people taught others to read because they did not want to go in public where they might catch the disease. (Was that a Polio epidemic?)

 

[Michael Sternbach]

Like gregory said, if "Death" just meant "transformation", we would not need a real person to read the cards.

I bet there are whole threads here at AT exploring potential interpretations of "Death".

I wonder when or WHO assigned the meaning of "the wish card" to the...... 9 of cups. Is this a "core traditional meaning"?? Then the Rx is "you don't get your wish"??? THAT canned meaning is so far off so very often. I wonder just when is the first time this meaning was used? ...and how did it get so stuck with no regards to the IX Hermit card? It is not in Waite's "Pictorial Key".

Have you used a computer app? They pop out meanings, but the meanings that pop out may mean simply nothing! I do use computer apps when convenient, but I "read" the cards, I don't just look at canned meanings that particular author chose to assign each card. Now I do enjoy reading various Tarot books. (I have as many books as decks...) Sometimes authors are creative and mind-expanding, other times they are narrow and limited...

So who made up the "core traditional meanings" anyway?

We don't know who made the 1st Tarot deck.

The most traditional meanings accessible to us are the ones transmitted by Etteila, to my knowledge. I would base reading with the TdM or Papus on those.

Another tradition was started by the Golden Dawn; Mathers' Book T was influenced influenced somewhat by Eteilla but more so by the imagery of the astrological decans in the [i ]Picatrix[/i] (of course there were other influences as well).

Sure enough, GD members like Waite and Crowley again took their liberties. So if somebody talks of traditional meanings, my first question would be, which tradition are they referring to?

And of course, even within the context of any of these traditions, there have been many strongly influential books published in the meantime that expanded or evolved the cards' meanings especially into the area of spiritual psychology, however, they don't always seem to be in line with earlier interpretations (i.e. Pollack for the RWS, Arrien for the Thoth). My question regarding such a 'modern' interpretation would be, is it in accordance with a card's archetypal core? That is something that doesn't evolve, per say. But its understanding and application may.

As Jung recognized, an Archetype has no tangible form as such, however, it can express itself in so many ways, with so many nuances. Imo, as Tarot readers it is most of all this essence that we must try to attain a trans-mental (intuitive) comprehension of. Only from there are we are in a position to decide whether a concrete interpretation (by ourselves or by others) is or isn't valid.

In the old days, the church was scared of this tool that they did not understand, so they deemed it illegal, right?!
I read that a raging disease was the turning point where high ranking church people taught others to read because they did not want to go in public where they might catch the disease. (Was that a Polio epidemic?)

Are you seriously suggesting that high ranking church people were once reading and teaching Tarot? If so, I wonder what they made of a card like the Popess...

 

[Pam O]

Food for thought:
The sources you refer to are all many years after the 1st Tarot cards that have been found. Hmmmmm. And where did "they" get their info?

Are you seriously suggesting that high ranking church people were once reading and teaching Tarot? If so, I wonder what they made of a card like the Popess...

No...

They were the ones trying to ban it because it was scary to them.

 

[SunChariot]

Have you ever had a reading done, and had the reader interpret the cards with meanings you know aren't correct?
I try to consider imagery and intuition, but occasionally I want to ask are you sure? That card traditionally means xyz!
Just curious how others handle this.

No.

Because it is not part of my personal beliefs on Tarot that that is possible. It not part of my belief system on Tarot that there is such thing as "correct" meanings, in the sense that other meanings are incorrect.

People are not obliged to use the traditional meanings of the cards. There are many other ways to read. Reading is a very personal thing. The cards speak to each of us differently. None of us can understand the message that came to the original reader as it came to them in the language that the cards speak to them in, not the language that it speaks to us in.

It's like their cards speak to them in French and yours speak to you in English. There are some common words between both languages. But also some words that sound the same but mean something different in one than in the other. Since we do not speak the language their cards speak to them we are not qualified to understand the message that came to them. Only they can know that.

We can either trust that reader or not. But we have no way of telling what the message was meant to be. Only they can know.

And at the best of times, intuition overrides the traditional meaning. EVEN if the reader had the same basic/traditional meaning as you for a card, if their intuition was screaming at that moment in time that the card was not taking on it's traditional meaning but meant something else instead, then they are supposed to follow that. Intuition is an important part of reading.

Those are my views and beliefs. So know I have never had a reader come up with a meaning that I know is not correct. Because I do not believe that it is possible to know a meaning is not correct. Anything can come up in a reading.

Babs

 

[SunChariot]

Many here are violently against the idea of death "meaning" transformation and say it is either DEATH (as in buried, coffin, worms, heaven/hell) or a TOTAL ending - for just one example.

Even the "core traditional meanings" you subscribe to are not agreed to by all. If they were - no-one would need another reader - we could just use a book with those meanings listed like a dictionary.

Very true. And it always amazes me that if someone asks here on AT what a card means, and 52 people answer, there will be 52 different answers. No two people seem to have the same meaning for any given card (or an identical reading method).

For what it is worth, Death does not mean transformation for me either. For me, it has a two part meaning. First that something will end completely. Secondly, that it had to (was meant to) end to make room for something better that is meant to come the querent. If that thing did not end, the new thing (that is better for them) could not come.

Like losing a job and while you are looking finding a much better one. Had you not lost the first one, you would not be looking. And would not have found the better one.

That is it's meaning for me. Nothing to do with transformation. It says something will ned but in the end you will find out why and will see it was for the best.

Babs

 

[AriesVirgoAscending]

Very true. And it always amazes me that if someone asks here on AT what a card means, and 52 people answer, there will be 52 different answers. No two people seem to have the same meaning for any given card (or an identical reading method).

For what it is worth, Death does not mean transformation for me either. For me, it has a two part meaning. First that something will end completely. Secondly, that it had to (was meant to) end to make room for something better that is meant to come the querent. If that thing did not end, the new thing (that is better for them) could not come.

Like losing a job and while you are looking finding a much better one. Had you not lost the first one, you would not be looking. And would not have found the better one.

That is it's meaning for me. Nothing to do with transformation. It says something will ned but in the end you will find out why and will see it was for the best.

Babs

What you just described as not being transformation, is in fact exactly how most people describe transformation. Something ended, so something could start.

I'm just interjecting, if that's not transformation, what is?