Creating a BTVS deck - Looking for other fans

[Razz]

What a great idea! I am creating a deck of Tarot for a friend. It's not BtVS, but what a great idea! I wish I had thought of that.

How are you coming along with it? Have you decided how to do the major/minor arcana? I am curious to know how you did that?

I could see Giles in the role of the Hierophant so very easily. Would you have Buffy as?

Razz

 

[dolphingirl]

HI

I love Buffy! here are a few ideas I had. You could use holy water for cups. for the suits you could use Zander for cups Giles and Buffy for swords as both are different ideas of swords. Willow, Oz and Tara could be pentacles. Wands (Stakes could be Angel and Spike & Drue

Cant wait to see more!!!
Samantha

 

[Razz]

I like dolphingirl's idea about using the different suits, but I thought of them as the major arcana. Got to thinking about this today.

I see Dawn as the Fool. Willow as the Magician. Like I said before, Giles as the Hierophant, Joyce would be the Papess. I see Buffy as the Wheel of Fortune card or the Universe card. Not sure why either one of them, but I do. I see Dru as the Devil or the Death card. I see Spike as the Tower. The Lovers I do see Angel and Buffy (even though I do like very much Spike and Buffy).

Hope to hear more about your deck!

Razz

 

[amyel]

Buffy Rocks!

P.S. Razz...ya gotta be careful here because we have international BtVS fans on this site who aren't on season 6 yet.

I keep trying to tease Kiama, but she's not biting. (OW! No pun intended!!!)

 

[alicamel]

Wow, I didn't realise there'd be so much interest in a BTVS deck!

I'm not sure why I chose characters to represent all the major arcana, it just happened - once I got started I could pretty much find a major character for every card. Only one I'm stubling over is Card 20 - The Angel/Last Judgement. CurrentlyI've chosen Dawn, but I don't think she fits all that well. I origanally though that I would use Buffy jumping off the tower at the end of season 5, but then I thought it might seem odd to have that when all the other cards were characters. Any ideas?

I think the characters represent the postitive and negative sides of the card much better than images, though I can see how it would be a bit stale. Also, you definately have to be a fairly huge fan to get all the depths of meaning. Hopefully when I add the descriptions that will help, but I definately agree that there needs to be more symbolism on the cards.

So, question for you all: what kind of symbolism would you like? Something as simple as adding the astrological, planetary and elemental symbols to each card, or something more complex? (This is all baring in mind my extremely limited computer art skills. I'm learning as I go along, but I can't guarentee great works of art!)

I like the suggestions for the suit names.

Razz: Buffy is currently XIII - Death. She is also currently the Ace of Wands (or stakes )

I'm still working on themes for minor arcana. I've worked out who I want the first four cards of Wands to be (Buffy, Faith, First Slayer and Kendra, in that order) Willow as the Ace of Swords, and Xander as the Ace of Cups. Again, I fnd myself sticking with people rather than images or situations. I think it may have something to do with how I'm looking at the tarot cards. I always view them as people when I'm looking into the, or writing descriptions of them. I'm not sure how successful this approach is going to be?

Thanks to those of you who suggested I contact the Buffy people. It may be better to wait until I at least have completely planned out the deck.

Also, how big a market do you think there would be for a Buffy Tarot deck? I know there is a big market for Buffy merchandise, but a tarot deck is much more specific than books or posters of jewellery etc.

Wow, this is a long post. Thanks for all the support and suggestions. Guess I better keep working on it!

Thanks,
Alice

 

[Thirteen]

Razz (01 Mar, 2002 13:29):
I see Dawn as the Fool. Willow as the Magician. Like I said before, Giles as the Hierophant, Joyce would be the Papess. I see Buffy as the Wheel of Fortune card or the Universe card. Not sure why either one of them, but I do. I see Dru as the Devil or the Death card. I see Spike as the Tower. The Lovers I do see Angel and Buffy (even though I do like very much Spike and Buffy).

I agree with some of these, however: Joyce is far more the Empress. She was a "MOM" through and through, patient, worried, fussy, nurturing. Very Empress.

I'd cast Tara as the Papess or--who was the Techno-witch, Giles' girlfriend who tried to restore Angel?

I agree that Buffy should be UNIVERSE card! Absolutely. She's not only the center around which everyone revolves (the center of the universe), but as a Slayer, she is universal. Every generation, all around the world. Eternal.

I agree also that one should reach for other images, like the Tower that Glory built for the Tower. As for "The Devil" why not the Mayor?

Oz is THE MOON. Tara as Temperance or The Star. I'd actually put Spike as The Lovers (with Dru to one side, Buffy to the other)--and it works if you think about it. The one thing Spike has ALWAYS been is a lover. Good, bad or otherwise, he admits, he's Love's bitch.

So who's the Emperor?

 

[Thirteen]

alicamel (24 Feb, 2002 18:58):
For the minors, I thought Wands would be Slaying, demons, good vs evil etc. Buffy as the Ace of Wands, Faith as Dominion, The First Slayer as Virtue, Kendra as Completion. The Court cards: Knight - Angelus, Queen - Darla, Prince - Spike, Princess - Drusilla.

I don't quite understand the use of people as "aces." Do you mean that each suit would be dominated by a person? That would work out far better. For example: "Stakes" (or wands) would be dominated by Buffy and other slayers, with Buffy as the "queen" and Riley as Knight (he was the closet to a male slayer there was on the show), Faith as prince (never mind the gender, you know she's the "prince"), Kendra as Princess and scenes of stakes or "staking" or carrying stakes as numbers 1 (ace) through 10. And the FIRST SLAYER would HAVE to be THE ACE. Because she's the one who started it all. And Aces are just that, the raw power of the suit, it's seed.

Instead of Swords, have "Watchers" (or books--swords = intellect, air, mind. These dominated by the Watchers)--images for 1-10: Giles, Wes, the Council, Rayne (sp?--you know, the trouble maker) and pages or piles of books. They're always fortelling trouble anyway. Giles would be Knight of this suit. Willow, at her computer, it's queen, Wes it's prince, and Fred the princess.

Champions or Love would be dominated by Angel, who would be Knight, with Cordy as Queen, Gun as prince and Darla as princess. Love scenes, all the romances that ever were in the show, would dominate from 1-10. Imagine the scene where Cordy and Oz see Xander and Willow kissing as 5 of Cups--Cordy and Oz only see disastor, and can't, at that moment, think of anything positive--very 5 of cups.

Finally, you'd have "Mortals" and that would have Xander as the Knight, Anya as the queen (she's coming to terms with being mortal), Jonathan as prince and Dawn as princess. Images of the mortal world which does intrude on the lives of our characters 1-10.

Does any of that work?

 

[alicamel]

Thirteen (03 Mar, 2002 00:27):
I don't quite understand the use of people as "aces." Do you mean that each suit would be dominated by a person? That would work out far better.

And herein lies my problem. When I talk about, say the 4 of Wands, I'm not picture two wands and symbols. I'm trying to attact what is connected with that card to a person. In this case it is 'Completion' - the energy of the Ace built into a solid, immoveable system, perfected work built from previous knowledge etc. Well, that's Kendra: the Slayer that is trained, perfected, polished, immoveable. She might have been Buffy, exccept that she has been moulded into a specfic shape. See?

And the FIRST SLAYER would HAVE to be THE ACE. Because she's the one who started it all. And Aces are just that, the raw power of the suit, it's seed.

I've used the fight of good against evil as the theme for Wands, and Buffy is the source of that in the series. No one else would be fighting if not for her: Willow would be a computer geek, Angel would be moping around in gutter, Giles would be back in England reading stuff. She inspires them to better things: Willow remains in Sunnydale at the end of S3 and tells Buffy it's because she wants to be a part of that fight. Things and people start (such as Dawn) and change (such as Willow) because of her. For me that is the Ace of Wands: great, inspiring, natural energy that changes everything. She has the heart that the First Slayer does not: she is a true hero.

I've seen the Ace of Wands repeatedly be described as as outburst of firey energy, and from that I've formed a view of it (perhaps wrongly) as a Solar Flare; bursting out, each time different, affecting things both obviously and inobviously. Buffy remodels herself, according to what is required of her, like a solar flare, bursting out, but willing to return and come back again. That's the difference between her and Faith, and why Faith is 2 - fire in it's highest form. If Buffy's a solar flare then Faith is the fire that keeps being fueled, building higher and higher without rest.

The First Slayer is not the source for anything. She has the raw power of the Slayer, the source for which is TPTB. She's a conduit, through which the chain of Slayers began. She's not the source for the battle of good vs. evil: she didn't fight because it was right, she didn't fight because she cared about anything. She was alone, following her calling, fighting evil, without understanding why. Admitedly the choice to place her as 3 was largely influenced by Crowley's Thoth Deck, where the card is described as primal energy (that she is) manifesation of hope (also is: she is hope that good will win) conceited and arrogant. (if she is only focused on herself and no one else, this seems inevitable.)

Does any of that work?

I can really see these working - I especially like the Champions!

I'm still really trying to figure out how to approach the minor arcana. One way would be how you suggest, with the court cards and then piles of books, stakes, etc. I'd still like to use a combination of people/groups/situations for the numbered cards though. I'm very undecided.

 

[amyel]

Alicamel,
I know you are basing your BtVS on the Thoth deck, but perhaps an answer to your minor arcana canundrum would be to take an approach similar to the Mythic Tarot. This deck uses basic myths from Greek mythology to illustrate (both figuratively and textually) the minor arcana. Keep in mind Joss Whedon has always maintained that essentially, BtVS is a story about growing up - the demons & slaying and stuff are just the backdrop against which Buffy and her friends grow.

For example, this season has several story lines, but at it's core it is about the passage from late teen to young adult - learning to stand on one's own two feet and the pitfalls young adults often make during this transition, i.e. Willow's addiction, Buffy's lust, even Xander's leap into "real adulthood" with Anya (being purposefully vague here for those who are not in season 6). Contrasting against this is Dawn's seemingly "normal" teenage expressions - skipping classes, stealing, talking back, etc - all set to contrast with what dedicated fans know of Buffy's teenage angst (who could say she ever had a "normal" teenage years??) and contrast with Buffy's role as the adult.

So, two tatics you could try:

1) Set each minor arcana suite against a storyline - either seasonally or one that runs through all seasons (Willow's desire to be seen as "cool", Buffy's desire to find normalacy despite her role as Slayer, Xander's desire to escape his family history); or
2) Choose a theme for each suite (this should follow standard Tarot, i.e cups = relationships, etc) and find smaller storylines to demonstrate.

Since minor arcana is dealing with emotions and "everyday" lessons & issues, trying to depict characters to respresent them will be a struggle, IMHO. Better to let the situations and storylines, issues and ethics and emotions describe these cards.

Anyway, that was my thought as I returned to this thread.

 

[Thirteen]

Alicamel,

I understand why you're choosing what you're choosing, but I think you're not making this deck very user friendly. You're sinking so deep into Crowley's meanings that you're interpeting the minors as as people, not events.

Virtue is not a person. It's an action, something you ARE in a situation. You can't be virtuous just sitting and doing nothing. It's when you're in a situation that tests you, and you act virtuous that you're "virtuous". Ditto with "completion." That's not referring to a person, not even by Crowley--it's something that's finished. A project worked on and perfected. Yes, Kendra's complete. And you see that. But if you hand a card with her on it, even with the word, "completion" under it, will anyone else understand? More to the point, will a lot of people understand? Or will they say, "um, she's completion because she died?" That's what I'd think. We have to understand your reasoning, read your mind, to "get it."

Tarot cards, tarot readings, and especially the minor archana are events. Each 1-10 minor archana tells a story. So the Ace doesn't show a woman, or Buffy, but the event that starts it all. The torch on fire, the wand alight with magic. So what SCENE can you have for the Ace of Wands to SHOW what you mean? Buffy, yes, but the image of Buffy as she turns around, lollipop in mouth, when her first Watcher tells her, "You're the choosen one!" That gives the READER an idea of what this card is about, finding that first fire. The person who starts it all, at the moment when they became THAT person.

Or take Wands 2--what image would SHOW the STORY of "fire in its highest form"--Faith doing WHAT? At what point was she at her highest, about to burn out form? Perhaps the best scene for that would be Buffy and Faith hanging in the air, during that final, fatal fight, seemingly equal, certainly equally energized, motivated, and perpared to kill. Two wands, burning bright, which will burn out?

Crowley is a hard deck, and not for beginners. Definately use his definitions, as they're fantastic, but remember that his images for the minors are not easy for beginners. Think more of RW in that case. I know you're deeply into this, and have it really thought out, but unless you plan to make the deck for your-eyes-only, no one else is going to understand your reasoning without a very thick book of explainations--and, more to the point, they're going t have a hard time remembering them. The image on both major and minor arcana should be as clear as clear can be to the reader. An image that will help them remember the meaning. Think storytelling.