Deck criticism - how do we feel about it? split from: Most Under-rated Decks?

[sacredashes]

Lucy is getting restless....

I am not a feminist, in or out of the closet - I am a people-ist. But - there are lots of birdies out there, sculpted or in the flesh, that I am happy - if that's the word - to see, and I love naturist beaches....

Actually I think I am a FRACTION closer to articulation, then. It isn't his birdie. And while I LOATHE the sculptural convention of digging out holes in the eyes, it isn't that either, as it doesn't critically bother me on other statues.

*wanders off to think YET AGAIN what it IS*

ROFL... well at least we eliminated one item that isn't taking the piss out of you..

I know what you mean though. Sometimes, I know I dislike something intensely but it take a lot of soul searching before I can nail it down and when it hits; its baffling to realize the thing which I hate is in fact very far removed from object I associated it with in the first place! Transference...

If Lucy is restless.. maybe she needs to go out with you for a walk

 

[Pen]

Lucy is getting restless....

I am not a feminist, in or out of the closet - I am a people-ist. But - there are lots of birdies out there, sculpted or in the flesh, that I am happy - if that's the word - to see, and I love naturist beaches....

Actually I think I am a FRACTION closer to articulation, then. It isn't his birdie. And while I LOATHE the sculptural convention of digging out holes in the eyes, it isn't that either, as it doesn't critically bother me on other statues.

*wanders off to think YET AGAIN what it IS*

I think the main problem with David is that he's not being viewed as his creator planned he should be viewed - ie (if what I remember reading somewhere is correct) set atop a tall plinth. The perspective of the sculpture was adjusted accordingly so that it would look right to a viewer some distance below. This is why the head seems too large, the pose exaggerated. An extreme example of this idea can be seen in Holbein's The Ambassadors, which features a peculiar object at the lower right hand side of the painting - completely unreadable unless you're viewing it from one side in a long narrow gallery, when it becomes a skull.

But this is off topic I guess.

And I agree with OnePotato and Nevada 100% - beautifully expressed too.

Pen

 

[Rosanne]

I think I can help Gregs with her dislike of David.
I dislike him too.
He, like all Michelangelo's sculptures(especially the Pieta which I love) are proportionally all wrong- but work.
David started out as something else and I think you can see when it changed.The legs were already blocked out and I think if not already started it would have been a much stronger 'giant'. Given that the statue was supposed to be high on the cathedral but was placed in the piazza- we see a stronger body on a youth's legs- the hands are of an adult as is the size of the head and he is glaring with hatred. Makes me feel very uncomfortable. Like Frankenstein- body bits from other beings.

~Rosanne

 

[gregory]

Maybe...

But also - what about this that someone here just sent me, trying to help me sort it in my head. Which IS seriously interesting stuff.

Maybe we are OT here though - this is all getting a bit specific

 

[Owl Song]

I've never really thought of that as being lazy, but I do agree that taking the time to give concrete ideas and thoughts are much more interesting and informative for others. I'm going to try and be more mindful of making specific points when talking about a deck. This will truely help me understand myself more too!

You're right, faunabay. I don't think lazy is the most accurate term. Sometimes a piece of art will grab you emotionally in a similar way that you feel when you get those first pangs of a crush, the giddy and heady "Ahhhh!" kind of feeling. And what's the first thing we do when we feel that way? We gush. Nothing wrong with gushing. It's good to see people feeling enthusiastic about something that has grabbed them. I would never want anyone to feel that they shouldn't come here and do that. It's a fun, joyful emotion to share. But balance is important, too. I think there have been times where I personally could reign myself in a bit and remember to keep that balance. I think artists certainly enjoy praise but even more so, I think they like to understand why and how something has captured us. Otherwise those Justice scales tip too far in one direction and clarity flies right out the window.

For the most part, when I buy a deck these days, it's because of the artwork more than anything else. The artwork has to appeal to me and this is coming as an end-consumer, not a reader.

I read with only 1 deck now, no other but I tell ya, there are so many beautiful works of art out there... each with their own personality, fancy winks and pretty pictures. Its hard to resist even if someone shouts from the rooftops how badly it reads.. I'm thinking... but its so pretty though... and I do like pretty things!!

I couldn't have said this better, Ashe. I generally like "pretty" decks. I tend to choose decks that are aesthetically pleasing to me. Does that make me a shallow person? I don't think so. Generally, the first thing that we notice about a Tarot deck is the art. After that, we probably consider the concept and/ or system behind the deck. The concept/ system might come first sometimes. A deck might appeal to you, for example, because you are fascinated with Norse mythology and that intellectual interest grabs you first. Maybe you're not so crazy about the artwork but you appreciate the ingenuity or the intricate thought and concepts behind the deck. But either way you've still made a connection. We don't buy (or at least we don't keep) things that we do not connect with--on some level.

I don't think we should have to apologize for our tastes or feel inferior or superior because of them. They are what they are. I DO think, however, it's valuable to step back once in a while and ask ourselves, "Hmmm, why do I like this? Why does xyz appeal to me. Why doesn't xyz appeal to me?" That's being analytical, critical, and mindful. More Justice/ balance stuff.

As for fans who hate to see their favorite artists criticized, all I can say is, get over it. Everyone has a right to their opinion. No one has to like the same things you do. Each of us is an individual - thank goodness. I can remember in high school, kids acting as if something was wrong with the kid who liked different music than others did, or strongly disliked something. But adults have no excuse to behave that way, as if others can't have opinions and state them honestly. Your favorite artists can very likely take it, and if they can't they have some learning to do, because it happens, it has always happened, and it always will. People have a right to their opinions.

Nevada, I agree with this wholeheartedly. Just because someone doesn't like the same deck/ artist that you do, that doesn't lessen the value of said deck/ artist. Nor does it somehow compromise your taste or opinion. We all like different things. What one person finds superficial someone else may find rich and evocative. And that's precisely because we all do have different backgrounds. We all bring completely different experiences to the table. In a way, I equate this idea with reader-response theory in literature. "Reader-response theory recognizes the reader as an active agent who imparts "real existence" to the work and completes its meaning through interpretation. " (Wikipedia.) I love this idea--that the reader/ viewer/ user of a Tarot deck has the potential to expand the original work through their interaction with it. Art isn't created in a vacuum. It's extraordinary, really, when you consider the kind of dialog that a piece of art can open up. And maybe that's why it's so compelling.

 

[faunabay]

I actually enjoy the differing opinions on decks. It doesn't bother me in the least when someone says one of my favorite decks is trash! I just know they're wrong! But it's also fun to talk about it.....not bashing in general terms.

I've said this before......... what I don't like is when people get SO angry when a deck doesn't appeal to them. Or if the publisher does something "you" don't like. Obviously everyone has opinions - likes/dislikes - but why get so friggin' angry about it? (shakes head) I just don't get it.

One example I used to get so frustrated about was the multi language borders on LS decks. People get so hyped and mad about that. BUT......I think it was Greg Stanton - made an excellent point earlier on in this thread explaining his dislike of them. When you explain the reasoning behind said dislike you're more apt to influence people's thoughts, get them to truely listen, than if you just say "they're crap!" LOL My first question after the latter statement would be "Why are they crap and why are you so upset?"

But I'm also one of those people who can see most sides of issues. I have, in the past, irritated people because I do see their side as well as mine so won't "argue" with them. LOL I'm not wishy washy but I truely can see both sides to issues quite frequently. And you CAN help me to see things differently if you talk not scream your opinion. Of course that's just me.

 

[tarot heart]

I have spent so much time having to look at the horrid thing to try and say what.... that I do know that much !) So I guess he must be "in good taste" - but I still don't like to look at him, and I still cannot articulate why.

Hi Gregory,

You say you had to spend so much time...as in a study class of some type? Perhaps it is because you had to that it brings up memories of a stressful time for you. I know, for me, there are a few perfectly innocuous things that bring up bad memories and therefore, I hate to look at them. Perhaps the same reason may apply here for the David and you.

I saw David for the first time when I was on my Honeymoon in 1990. I walked into the room and saw him from a distance. I felt drawn to that statue in a way I find hard to describe. As I walked closer to it, I felt as though I was walking toward a real person. That feeling is what I find most amazing about David. People say he is out of proportion. I never, ever, felt that way. To me, it was the most exquisite statue I had ever seen. Every hand, foot, muscle detail, bone detail, etc was perfect. It seemed as though there was a real person frozen just inside that wall of stone, and with the right words, the spell could be broken and David would live! I remember not wanting to leave that room. I just wanted to stay there and watch David because I knew, at any moment, he would move! My husband thought the statue was remarkable also, but he didn't feel the same emotions I did. I couldn't explain it myself. I had seen many, many, many statues in Florence, in that museum, many of Michaelangelo's other statues yet, none affected me the way David did.

The article you linked to says David was never displayed full frontal? Well, when I was there in 1990 it was most certainly full frontal. There was nothing blocking the view of it and I have tons of pictures to prove it. There's an old saying..."Don't believe everything you read."

I realize this is still an off topic discussion of David but I felt the need to defend David on a personal level. Which brings me to the topic of defending things, things like our favorite tarot decks. In this forum, I have noticed that things are frequently taken out of context. This will be difficult to explain without thoroughly researching various topics and their threads, which would require dissertation skills. However, in the course of reading threads and the various responses of members to a deck, I have noticed that people get caught up in defending their opinions of their favorite or least favorite decks. That's when, it seems, emotions run high, and things get nasty. It seems that members are no longer giving opinions of the work but rather, they are lashing back. It becomes a game of having the better opinion. The "Who Can Give the Best/Worst Opinion" game. It is then more a matter of member vs. member. I don't have a problem with this, but what is forgotten is that the creator is reading this and can't help but take those comments to heart.
Creating a deck is a personal journey. I was very sorry to hear that Ciro changed the baby on that card mentioned many posts back because of a comment a member made here. I am not critcizing the comment, just Ciro's reaction to it. When I buy a deck, I want the artist's vision, not a conglomeration of what AT members want on their cards. And just for the record, I think Ciro's artwork is wonderful, but the two decks I own, Gilded and Divine, are not in my top ten favorites. But then again, I do like them and plan to keep them. For me it was a case of online scans looked better than in hand, sort of thing.

I recently posted a response in the overrated decks thread. I stated that I thought the Victorian Romantic was over-rated. A member, one whose opinions I thoroughly value, misinterpreted my remarks as an opinion that I could not read with the deck. I realized that this member truly loved the deck and possibly felt hurt that I did not like it or that anyone could not like it. I responded that I could read with the deck, but that I was merely of the opinion that it was over-rated. And please, if that member is reading this, I am just trying to give an example of how emotions can run high here. I' sometimes find that I am in a position where I need to defend my opinion. The last time it happened, I didn't even bother coming back with a response. If I have given a reason for my like or dislike, then that should be enough. I don't want to have to defend it ad nauseum. It becomes childish and immature to me, and I don't enjoy getting caught up in that. If I am the only one who feels this way, then so be it. But, I doubt it.

tarot heart

p.s. The above comments were only meant to be helpful and in no way meant to discredit the opinions or viewpoints of others. Isn't it a shame that I had to add this disclaimer because, inevitably, there will be those who think the above comments were directly aimed at them? I am not singleing out anyone here, folks.

 

[gregory]

You say you had to spend so much time...as in a study class of some type? Perhaps it is because you had to that it brings up memories of a stressful time for you. I know, for me, there are a few perfectly innocuous things that bring up bad memories and therefore, I hate to look at them. Perhaps the same reason may apply here for the David and you.

No - no offence of any kind taken. I didn't spend that much time on him when I was there, as I felt there were things I enjoyed more which merited my attention ! but I have spent ages looking at photographs and so on on line - just because of discussions in this forum. I had a WONDERFUL time in Florence and would go back for a visit in a heartbeat - but I would pass on David, were it not that I now feel I ought to take another look at the genuine article, to see if I was wrong - and if not, what the hell it is that makes me not want to look !

Exquisite ? - I'm with Rosy - his Pieta, or his little known Virgin and Child in Bruges.

And you expressed an opinion about a deck - why shouldn't you ? Your views are just as valid as those of whoever disagreed with you.

I am reminded of the author who wrote recently - please don't finish a book you aren't enjoying - you will waste your time and deprive authors whose books you would enjoy of your interest and royalties !

 

[ilweran]

I can remember in high school, kids acting as if something was wrong with the kid who liked different music than others did, or strongly disliked something.

I was that kid. I remember being told my music was crap because it didn't get into the charts Didn't change my opinions.

These days I like reading what other people don't like about the things I do, a well written bad review can be much more interesting and give me more to think about than a positive review.

 

[faunabay]

I recently posted a response in the overrated decks thread. I stated that I thought the Victorian Romantic was over-rated. A member, one whose opinions I thoroughly value, misinterpreted my remarks as an opinion that I could not read with the deck. I realized that this member truly loved the deck and possibly felt hurt that I did not like it or that anyone could not like it. I responded that I could read with the deck, but that I was merely of the opinion that it was over-rated.

I read this exchange in the "overrated" thread and completely agree with you tarot heart. I love the VR myself but even I wondered at the comment given to you that said something about obviously you had never read with it before if you felt that way or something to that effect. (shakes head) Although sort of in their defense (I truely don't remember who said it) I've had quite a few people who've not liked the VR until they'd used it in a reading. Then it became one of their favorite decks. So, without knowing or remembering the details, that may have been why the original comment was made. Anyway that's what I told myself they were trying to say when I first read the comment.