Deck criticism - how do we feel about it? split from: Most Under-rated Decks?

[gregory]

- I’m gone. I may be here occasionally, but I’m not participating actively anymore to AT.
Reasons are many. Too much detail would be OT.

- without criticism there is no hope.
This must be point one.

- Do you realize how rare is the chance to confront yourself and share opinions and questions with publishers and creators?
How lucky you are?

Yes. Absolutely.

I only know that coming here is – EACH TIME – a deep personal cost in energy, self esteem, patience. It may be OK, but it just means I won’t come here anymore.
Yesterday you had the chance to share your opinions with a publisher. And today you have no more.
You lost something.
I didn’t.

Because I don’t need the PR here.
I don’t need the marketing here. (If it were for PR I would do a much better job staying actively away from this place)

I wish I could understand why Lo Scarabeo gets SUCH a bashing here. It seems far worse than anything directed at anyone else. Is it because they are seen as a Publisher, not as people with feelings ?

Before questioning what is right and what is wrong, you should first question what are the consequences.
If containing your aggressive behavior opens you a door, do you really think it’s a bad thing… even if you are being a critic. If letting it all go, closes you (and many others) a door… then good for you.
This is your choice and AT… as a community… definitely took it.
I feel unwelcome
(oh I perfectly know that there are many many many people that appreciate me and my presence. That is not the point. I feel, each time I’m here as a Publisher, that I have to defend against a wall of hate. Not reasoning, not discussing, just relying on sheer number and persistence to wear me out).

I wish you felt you could still come as an individual. Your other discussion threads are riveting.

The right to criticize is a KEYSTONE of a place like this.
But sometimes the right to be free to express one opinion transforms in the right to throw tomatoes.
You should stop and think how much painful it may be to come here and endure the stones.
It’s personal, because it’s me here: not an abstract concept.

VERY fair comment. It has become thoughtlessly cruel, all too often. And I suspect, in some cases, knee jerk. "Oh I don't like LS, so I hate this." Without even looking. And yes, the creators/publishers have to be able to respond and not just have the same tomato thrown again. If you said it once - you almost never have to say it again.

Getting back to the original post
the criticism that was mentioned was important.
It could have and should have evolved into some serious considerations and exchange about the current trends in Tarot.
It could have been something that we could all learn from.
The keywords are still "resentment", "out of proportion" and I would add (it's not mentioned) repetition.
Specifity itself is necessary.
But once a statement becomes a discussion, we must be prepared to discuss:
- listen
- argumentate
- seeing the opposite point of view

Seeing the opposite view is important. And what a lot of people in the creation and deck appreciation/obliteration threads don't seem (to me) to get is that that is not the same as having to agree with it. You cannot "argue" like and dislike. But it is OK for one person to like and another to dislike. And yes, we should give reasons - where we CAN. But to say that one view is worth more than another - I don't quite know how to express this - but we are all tarot enthusiasts here; we all have feelings and views. For any one person here to say that MissFluffyLamb's dislike of a deck is of no interest to the creator because her opinions are worthless is hurtful too. Even if she cannot explain why she doesn't like it.

But yes - criticism here should be done better and more politely. I would agree. And it absolutely should never turn into a witch hunt - and for some reason, against Lo Scarabeo - one of the best in the business, IMHO - it always seems to.

As I usually can't say what it is that gets to me about a card posted - one way or the other - I shall steer clear of creation threads unless I can.

And I tell you, AT people: NO MORE.
I cannot force on you, but I can stay clear.

ric

Much as you know it breaks my heart - I cannot blame you.

ETA after Ric edited

I don't think people like me deserve any special status.
But I think people like me deserve to feel welcome.

I think everyone short of a troll deserves to feel welcome. But people like you - yes, especially. Not with special status, but because you know stuff and share it. I don't need to say any more to you, do I. You KNOW.

 

[RiccardoLS]

To be honest, when I first went back to look at the thread after your reply... I did get a rude shock. Without going into details, it felt like a pitch fork and fire moment with the villagers coming to stake the ogre (me ) for offending you.

I'm no saint.
I remember but not deatils. What I recall was that someone (you?) had accused me obliquietly of saying against the RWS for personal gain.
I took it very personal.

I don't want to be right or wrong... yet, if we assume we are both honest, something has gone horribly wrong.

Maybe the point to this thread is understanding what went went wrong.
Not marking a line between the me and the you, but finding the common ground.

 

[moderndayruth]

The keyword here is “insulting”.
What discussion can I have on this base?

That's exactly the reason i asked people who log in here once in a blue moon NOT to get rude and aggressive and make such trolling comments...

Their opinion is NOT our opinion, Ric, but i am afaraid nothing can be changed now.

That's exactly why i hate it when some pushy and loud people permit themselves to criticize on behalf of everyone...

I took a brake to chill down and am now catching up with the thread...

(Un)equality has been mention a lot in the thread here... Are you being serious? Who is it that decides who is more equal than the others? On the base of what you are making the judgement?
How is the alleged "un-equllity" measured at an internet forum?
Is there some popularity context that you won and had forgetten to let us know?
Or is it your personal (dis)like and judgement? Do not forget that it is what it is - one man's opinion and that it most probably DOES NOT coincide with what the rest of us thinks.

 

[gregory]

(Un)equality has been mention a lot in the thread here... Are you being serious? Who is it that decides who is more equal than the others? On the base of what you are making the judgement?
How is the alleged "un-equllity" measured at an internet forum?
Is there some popularity context that you won and had forgetten to let us know?
Or is it your personal (dis)like and judgement? Do not forget that it is what it is - one man's opinion and that it most probably DOES NOT coincide with what the rest of us thinks.

You do mean a general sort of YOU, as in any one of us, I think and hope ?

 

[Alta]

While I feel that to an extent as moderators we have to let threads run a bit, I am trying to tell myself that this discussion is useful and not just pulling ATF apart even more. I am not sure which part of my head is winning that argument.

 

[baba-prague]

- I agree with Scion in many and many ways. Especially on his first posts (#172 and 179)… as the more you need to explain and detail an opinion the more you risk to distract from the core points. I think he expressed many things in a beautiful way, and being not so politically correct was fundamental to get to the point.

- I’m gone. I may be here occasionally, but I’m not participating actively anymore to AT.
Reasons are many. Too much detail would be OT.

- without criticism there is no hope.
This must be point one.

- Do you realize how rare is the chance to confront yourself and share opinions and questions with publishers and creators?
How lucky you are?
And I’m not speaking from some kind of pulpit… but in years of passion in roleplaying games and videogames, I NEVER had the chance of an honest talk with someone in the business.
I’m past gone the part in which I try to say what’s right, what’s wrong… what can be doe or could be done…
I only know that coming here is – EACH TIME – a deep personal cost in energy, self esteem, patience. It may be OK, but it just means I won’t come here anymore.
Yesterday you had the chance to share your opinions with a publisher. And today you have no more.
You lost something.
I didn’t.

Because I don’t need the PR here.
I don’t need the marketing here. (If it were for PR I would do a much better job staying actively away from this place)

Before questioning what is right and what is wrong, you should first question what are the consequences.
If containing your aggressive behavior opens you a door, do you really think it’s a bad thing… even if you are being a critic. If letting it all go, closes you (and many others) a door… then good for you.
This is your choice and AT… as a community… definitely took it.
I feel unwelcome
(oh I perfectly know that there are many many many people that appreciate me and my presence. That is not the point. I feel, each time I’m here as a Publisher, that I have to defend against a wall of hate. Not reasoning, not discussing, just relying on sheer number and persistence to wear me out).

Beautifully put Ric. I agree with every word.

Since I haven't been here we have had far, far more orders than before, simply because I am not wasting my energy. The people I value here are virtually all still chatting away to me (and giving crits as ever ) in The Other Place, and I love it. Alex now joins in occasionally which I also love. I would never, ever have exposed him to some of what was going on here.

If these posts are removed, at least what needs to be said has been said. With eloquence and honesty.

But like I say, I am out of here, so if you'd like to talk to me further (and we always love to hear from people) please do get in touch.

By the way mods, editing my signature without even telling me (I just noticed what has been done) is just plain rude. Do I deserve that level of disrespect? Really?

ETA: baba-prague was notified via PM that her sig line sending members to her Facebook page violated advertising rules. She removed that line and replaced it with a line commenting on being asked to remove it. That single line was removed.

Respect goes both ways. Alta and Sulis

 

[RiccardoLS]

That's exactly the reason i asked people who log in here once in a blue moon NOT to get rude and aggressive and make such trolling comments...

It is not a Trolling comment "per se".
It's just that it starts extreme. It starts hostile.

I have explained many times that without multilingual titles an average deck sell less. The French distributor, for instance, says: does it have French intruction? Yes, then he orders 3000. No, then he orders 500.
And the money done for that goes into publishing decks (like Dame Fortune) that barely meet the cost after years.
Discussion means at least take my explanation in consideration
Maybe the discussion could be: do you prefer this or that, as you can't have both. But being able to express an opinion that ends up into a production meeting... and influence what is actually done is not a little thing (imho).

But if the simple fact that some decks have multilingual titles is seen as insulting... well, I don't know how to cope with it.

 

[gregory]

I have explained many times that without multilingual titles an average deck sell less. The French distributor, for instance, says: does it have French intruction? Yes, then he orders 3000. No, then he orders 500.
And the money done for that goes into publishing decks (like Dame Fortune) that barely meet the cost after years.
Discussion means at least take my explanation in consideration
Maybe the discussion could be: do you prefer this or that, as you can't have both. But being able to express an opinion that ends up into a production meeting... and influence what is actually done is not a little thing (imho).

But if the simple fact that some decks have multilingual titles is seen as insulting... well, I don't know how to cope with it.

And the fact that you have already explained should put a stop to the comments, IMHO. You only need to throw the tomato once.

 

[moderndayruth]

But if the simple fact that some decks have multilingual titles is seen as insulting... well, I don't know how to cope with it.

Rick, most of my decks are from LS and being a polyglot, i absolutely don't mind the multilingual titles.
I do hope though that the above mentioned indeed remains the worst "insult" the original poster has ever experienced...
What i wanted to ask you is the following: if there is so many of us supporting what you do, why pay attention to nonconstructive criticism?
Not that i had never disagreed with you - i did on the White Cats, but i remain a fan of LS and i continue buying decks you publish, to me that is some kind of proactive publisher/artist - consumer relation; other than that, just "throwing tomatoes" as passatempo once in a while... i don't think its worth your attention.

 

[sacredashes]

Maybe the point to this thread is understanding what went went wrong. Not marking a line between the me and the you, but finding the common ground.

exactly, ric... exactly

hope you reconsider ... you do have friends here who will miss you.. that much I know